Exploring The Strategic Potential of Outsourced Services Procurement

Learnings from outsourcing the management of services procurement to managed service providers.

With Mick Field, Global VP Services Procurement, Outsourced MSP Provision

00:00:00 - Expertise in expanding a global MSP service procurement provision

00:06:00 - The magic of procurement strategy against capability and capacity

00:11:45 - Why do organisations outsource services procurement to MSPs?

00:22:00 - Understanding services procurement beyond the PO

00:33:30 - Aggregating value through the procurement process

00:42:00 - How are organisations approaching MSPs to deliver service procurement programs?

00:48:10 - Aligning the recruitment and procurement relationship between the MSP and the organisation

00:58:00 - Pre and post contract processes challenges and solutions

01:01:15 - The importance of work tracking when buying outcomes

01:09:30 - How has the MSP service procurement provision changed over time

Episode Highlights

Transcript

Auto-generated. Please excuse any minor errors.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;06;11
Jonny Dunning
Okay, Mick, thanks very much for joining me. We've managed to get the dogs out of the way.

00;00;06;14 - 00;00;26;14
Jonny Dunning
We've discussed the English versus Australia cricket debacle and we're now ready to get into talking about services, procurement and outsourced MSP provision in that area. I'm looking forward to this conversation session for ages. I'm really glad we managed to get together. Thank you very much for joining me now.

00;00;26;15 - 00;01;08;02
Mick Feild
Thank you. Thanks for having me on on the on the podcast. I'm looking forward to it as well. This is something I'm really passionate about services, procurement is a huge opportunity. I think it's an area that is pretty much untapped. Unfortunately, this and it's not through any nefarious activities or anything. It's just it's a big nut to crack and it's a lot for an organization sometimes to really get involved and figure out how to kind of operate this and how to use the best tools or services are available in the industry, such like yourselves, and that really be able to figure out how to use those tools correctly and drive the most value for their

00;01;08;02 - 00;01;11;20
Mick Feild
organization. So I'm really glad to be here today to have this conversation.

00;01;11;23 - 00;01;42;00
Jonny Dunning
Superb. Like I say, big not to crack 20 trillion in annual spend on services procurement across all these different categories is the estimated kind of market numbers a massive overspend for organizations hugely important as the world transitions more and more towards services based industries and services based spend becomes more and more important. But in there you've got a lot of expertise in from this position of when organizations are outsourcing.

00;01;42;00 - 00;02;05;06
Jonny Dunning
The problem of managing this tricky area to manage service providers. And obviously with where you started off coming originally from Australia now being based in the USA and originally kind of starting off with more of a technical computing background, you want to just talk a little bit about the journey you've taken to get to where you are today and to build up the expertise that you've got.

00;02;05;08 - 00;02;36;19
Mick Feild
Sure. Yeah. As you said, I served in a technical background. I was computer science. I worked my way through during that process, like coding and building networks and all that, all that fun stuff. So organizations and government organizations as well. And then as you do, as you progress through time, you start to move yourself up the chain and you start to focus more on from the execution down to like, how are we going to get things done in in a better and more efficient way.

00;02;36;21 - 00;03;00;29
Mick Feild
And in doing those that growth and that realization, I started to come to the conclusion, which is nothing unique, is that the best resources might not be necessarily people you can actually touch in the office with you all being the all going to the, you know, the building next to you or whatever it is. And so it started to really start to explore the the broader world.

00;03;01;06 - 00;03;23;29
Mick Feild
You know, the the large India Indian consultancies, some very large multinationals out of the U.S. and see what they can actually provide and be able to incorporate the best of what they could deliver. And in doing so, it started to really open my eyes to the ways of how we actually do that purchasing and buying process and structuring those contracts.

00;03;23;29 - 00;03;47;03
Mick Feild
So that way, again, it's not just I'm hiring a buddy to turn the crank. I'm really looking for a solution on how to do this and a true partnership. And so, you know, as I progressed through my career, I was able to kind of leverage that and be rather successful in making sure I was able to do those things, which resulted in going to really start help on the MSSP side.

00;03;47;03 - 00;04;07;07
Mick Feild
I got engaged with a really good global MSP and what I was able to do is help expand them with their practice and be able to start bringing it from the MSP side into a client rather than from a client reaching out. And I think we started to really develop a really good practice on what we could do there and start to really show that we could deliver on what we needed to do.

00;04;07;07 - 00;04;35;10
Mick Feild
So I feel like I'm not totally unique, but I feel I have a different slant on it because I do understand what we're trying to do. I coming from the IT side and it really blends well into services, procurement kind of process, and I really feel that I'm able to bring a slightly different perspective there and fully appreciate and understand not just the technical, what I need to get done, but the making sure we can craft solutions that are able to deliver on what their goals are.

00;04;35;13 - 00;05;00;17
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, and I think that expertise in services procurement is absolutely critical, obviously, in the sense that that's the service that you're providing. But also when you kind of when that's juxtaposed against these managed service provider organizations that typically large staffing organizations and which makes complete and utter logical sense in in one way, which is that they're just different ways of getting work done for organization.

00;05;00;17 - 00;05;23;26
Jonny Dunning
They're just different modes of capacity and capability for organizations to be able to leverage to get things done, whether it's a permanent employee sitting there, whether it's a contractor that's engaged, or whether it's a company providing that, delivering a service on an outcome basis. So it's all about how companies get things done. And that has changed massively over time as well.

00;05;23;27 - 00;05;44;18
Jonny Dunning
Obviously, with things like the gig economy and moving away prior to that, you know, moving away from this whole kind of permanent job for life type sets up on outsourcing, on the provision of services is just something that's that's grown massively. But I think when you when you look at now juxtaposition with staffing, sometimes for some companies that can look at that, it can be a bit confusing for them.

00;05;44;20 - 00;05;53;02
Jonny Dunning
So you need to have specific areas of expertise within those organizations because it is a different thing as well. It's a different mode of operation, isn't it?

00;05;53;04 - 00;06;16;11
Mick Feild
It is. It's got me having a drink. Yes, it is. At the end of the day it is. It's a different way of operating. It is different from the traditional staff recruiting of SAS augmentation approach. But that being said, I do like the approach where you're coming you made. It's really about getting access to capacities and capabilities of organizations and finding ways to do it.

00;06;16;13 - 00;06;36;28
Mick Feild
At the end of the day, buying is buying is buying like as much as it might ruffle a few feathers with procurement people. But at the end of the day, the actual transaction of acquiring is somewhat similar everywhere. As you know, you establish the agreement, the requirements you need, you come into what the contract looks like and then you execute against a contract.

00;06;37;00 - 00;06;57;27
Mick Feild
But the the magic bit is the capabilities of the organization, making sure that they align with delivering on what your actual objectives are. And that's still the key thing that needs to get done, and that should be the focus of what it is. The actual buying process should be somewhat routine. And yeah, we should be able to standardize that.

00;06;57;27 - 00;07;19;05
Mick Feild
And that's where leveraging a lot of those VMs tools and things like that is we can just turn that whether it's a river for purchasing or whether it is a VMs, it really is around. That's just standardization of process. And then a good MSP can kind of come in and they can really help you drive some of the efficiencies around them.

00;07;19;07 - 00;07;34;10
Mick Feild
But the magic is really figuring in upstream what we need to do, how we kind of establish those requirements, making sure they are able to deliver on those requirements and those and that delivery is actually going to be what the final outcome is going to be. So I think that's the magic.

00;07;34;12 - 00;07;53;16
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. And you know, you're talking about something in services procurement that is quite fluid. It's I always kind of use the analogy of looking at the procurement of goods and materials versus the procurement of services as being almost like diametrically opposed in the sense that when you procuring goods and materials, generally what you're procuring is quite simple to define.

00;07;53;18 - 00;08;13;21
Jonny Dunning
You know what it is, you know what it looks like, you know how much it weighs. It's fairly binary in a lot of ways, but the supply chain can be incredibly complicated, typically, and I'm generalizing here in services, it's the opposite. What you're trying to what you're buying. It's very difficult to define, hard to tie down, and buttons are a simpler supply chain.

00;08;13;24 - 00;08;31;26
Jonny Dunning
So I think with services procurement, it always seems to me like the two problems are how do you define effectively what it is you're going to buy and and build that into a contract that actually has a clear, clear deliverables. But then also how do you measure the delivery of that and how do you measure will the fact that things change along the way?

00;08;31;26 - 00;08;50;19
Jonny Dunning
Because, you know, you take an I.T. project, for example, if it's working on an agile methodology or any kind of project can just change when it's a service because, you know, you don't necessarily have all the information when you're starting out. So there's a lot more flexibility involved in the delivery, which makes it harder to capture the information through.

00;08;50;21 - 00;09;12;27
Mick Feild
Don't know. I agree to counter a little bit. We we live in a world where we everyday basis we actually operate that way quite comfortably. You your car breaks down you take it in for service. You know it's broken, you know it, you don't know what the fix is and you're going to say, Hey, I engage you to fix my car, but I have no idea of price what it is.

00;09;12;27 - 00;09;30;28
Mick Feild
I don't know what the problem is, but I'm willing to work with you to do that. And so, you know, you put in place stage gates, as it were, like as soon as he does his investigation, he calls you. You talk about what it is you work on, what you're you know, how it's going to be, how the pricing is going to be.

00;09;31;00 - 00;10;00;09
Mick Feild
But you still have that baseline goal at the end of what you want the outcome working. So we have that flexibility. We deal with that flexibility. And I say, you know, in everyday life and we're okay with it. I think sometimes we just get wrapped around the little bit in the business world that we kind of treated it a little bit differently where we don't need to like we're quite, you know, I tend to think people are quite bright, they're able to figure this stuff out quite comfortably.

00;10;00;11 - 00;10;20;16
Mick Feild
It's they just need to I think there's an element that's missing and probably a lot of conversations is that emotional element that we need to make sure that at the end of the day, the person who's negotiating the deal is just working their way through a process. You know, we don't need this. A lot of investment. They get rewarded.

00;10;20;16 - 00;10;43;03
Mick Feild
I'm putting in a good product into place, etc. But we're going to make sure that they their emotional investment and wanting to be able to control everything doesn't really override the outcome of what is supposed to be and somehow inhibited. At the end of the day, we know what the outcome is and you know, very few of us like Google where they go, he's a $10 million.

00;10;43;03 - 00;11;10;25
Mick Feild
Good, fine, you know, create something great for us. It's like, I need a website, I need a new service, I need, you know, a new system installed. I need to whatever. So we know what the outcome looks like. We can define. We just need to help put in, put a process in place to figure out what those goals are, how what are all those margins, what's the quality to make sure that, you know, they delivering?

00;11;10;25 - 00;11;32;14
Mick Feild
Is they supposed to do the quality gates are going to be and then and then it's once they're in place where and then able to track and then adjust accordingly like if there's something wrong we'll we can shift and adjust and do that. The legal side can be adjusted very easy. You know, lawyers are very bright. They can figure out exactly like it's we need to shift to just contracts with the contract so there's some flexibility in there and all that.

00;11;32;16 - 00;11;49;03
Mick Feild
But it's really making sure that the business process is in place, that we know what we're asking for is what we're going to you know, what they're delivering. We're able to test and validate. That's exactly what we're looking for. So that way we're able to then, you know, make the payments of the back end.

00;11;49;06 - 00;11;57;24
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. I mean, why what do you think are the key reasons that the organizations will actually outsource this problem?

00;11;57;27 - 00;12;21;17
Mick Feild
It comes down to resourcing. We don't have capabilities. Every organization is built around core capabilities of what their product or what service they're going to provide. And then they have around that, they have some capabilities to be able to do it. Every organization has an IT department, for example, you know, they're able to service and operate and run the the core basic IT services that organization.

00;12;21;17 - 00;12;45;14
Mick Feild
But then when you're going to install SAP, well, then they go to SFP and say, okay, I need you to come in and do it. So we have generalized skills to be able to deliver around certain areas or be able to provide certain services. But then when we require specific capabilities, knowledge, etc., well then we have to go buy it from an expert.

00;12;45;14 - 00;13;10;06
Mick Feild
And that's really what I think it comes down to and the realization of organizations that they can't do everything in-house. We can't afford to keep an SAP team experts on site. We can't afford to have work day people on site. We can't afford to have, you know, or any, you know, machinery, automation process. They can't all be on site unless that's core business.

00;13;10;08 - 00;13;22;15
Mick Feild
And so it's just a realization that, you know, an organization needs to grow and expand and we as we go through that process, we need to buy specialization outside the organization.

00;13;22;18 - 00;14;02;12
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. So, so they're using it as extended capacity and extended capability. But in terms of how they manage that, you know, most of the most of those kind of large organizations that you deal with have got fairly mature procurement teams and they've got technology stuck in the background. They're buying services, they're using services already when they're what are the key drivers that you see that will push them towards a situation where they'll go this problem of managing all these services that we're buying, you know, often hundreds of millions, if not billions per year, what are the key drivers that push them to say, we're going to have to outsource this to somebody?

00;14;02;15 - 00;14;29;04
Mick Feild
Yeah, it's yeah, it's a good question because there's a couple of answers. One is the realization of the risk that's associated with like at the end of the day, you're right, procurement teams are well established. But then one of the most R&D funded organizations in the EU funded teams in an organization, they're just incredibly understaffed. So what happens is they are in essence doing bare minimum.

00;14;29;07 - 00;14;54;04
Mick Feild
So they they're making sure that the big things kind of go through okay. They do their due diligence, you know, making sure that the high contract, the overarching contracts are in place. But then once it starts getting through down the spend levels, generally, once it starts getting down a little lower. So if we're talking $1,000,000 and below, maybe they're just transactions going through, they get very cursory.

00;14;54;04 - 00;15;16;29
Mick Feild
Look at unless somebody raises a point says, hey, something's not quite right here, they're just being passed through the system. And within those those agreements, anything could be written there. You know, So I think it you know, I don't know what to say about, you know, engagement managers, hiring managers are having those conversations with clients. Well, start with suppliers.

00;15;17;01 - 00;15;48;01
Mick Feild
Those suppliers could be helping them. Right. Cross those agreements. They could be inserting anything in there. And so it just opens the door to some element of risk there that really needs to be mitigated. So being able to put it into a technology where you're able to send the force and rigor around that, whether you are helping with the contract writing process where you're only allowed certain terms to be able to be entered in or sometimes can never be edited or etc..

00;15;48;01 - 00;16;11;29
Mick Feild
So that way there's some rigor and control that the guardrails from in place. So that way, you know, you're not exposing yourselves too heavily. There's other and I is a great example here is there's a couple of great tools on the market at the moment who are really starting to look into those things and where they're able to build individual client profiles.

00;16;12;01 - 00;16;40;07
Mick Feild
So what are and supplier profiles? So they're able to start looking at the individual transactions coming in, putting them up against those those profiles which list out certain behaviors or certain things that they're allowing spend thresholds, certain terms and conditions being passed through or banned. And so what they're able to do is use is being providing some of that filter work there to kind of like mitigate that risk again.

00;16;40;10 - 00;17;09;22
Mick Feild
So I think that, you know, things like AI is going to drive a lot of advantage here, especially on that initial uptake work. So it's around mitigating risk for the organized and then it's around secondary. I think the other driver is like with we spend a lot of money and we really getting the value for that money and there's a lot of organizations who have great upfront programs in place.

00;17;09;22 - 00;17;34;05
Mick Feild
They do their project, they justify they need $10 million or $20 million spend, and then they never go back and look at the return on investment to make sure that when we actually invested that money on a program to get something done with, you know, we shifted lives, company budgets, etc., to get things done, we never actually checked to see that we're realizing the gain here.

00;17;34;08 - 00;17;56;07
Mick Feild
So I think that one of the things that, you know is figuring out, are we spending our money correctly? Are we spending it in the most efficient manner that we, you know, from a processing perspective? And then, as I said, making sure we're actually being smart with the how are we spending your money measuring the return on investment, making sure that we are achieving the goals which basically we were supposed to do?

00;17;56;09 - 00;18;21;13
Mick Feild
You know, I'm sure there's many organizations you can side and conversations you've had with all the procurement people you've met in your time, but who have run projects. And I will confess to you that we should have killed this project or we should have you know, we said we were going to do this, and after six months we just changed our goals and, you know, delivered it anyway.

00;18;21;13 - 00;18;37;28
Mick Feild
And we never really got the benefit we were looking for. And I think that's, you know, that's a huge area, I think, of opportunities for all clients to really look and see that we actually get what we're supposed to be getting and then to lose the value we're supposed to be doing.

00;18;38;00 - 00;19;16;06
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, because as I said earlier, when when you're buying a service, it's just less tangible. And I think so. So visibility is definitely a massive issue and it's partly an issue of capacity within organizations, within their procurement teams to manage, particularly, as you said, the tail spend. But just services are just messier. You know, it's also it's also, I believe, partly due to the way that top level kind of generalized procurement technology works like you kind of big source to pay procure to pay platforms.

00;19;16;08 - 00;19;43;08
Jonny Dunning
They were they were ultimately borne out of an evolution from the ERP to these procurement specific systems. You know, exactly as the the moniker describes procuring to payment and managing that process. But when when they were coming into operation, the market was much more geared towards goods, materials and manufacturing following on from that kind of ERP journey than services.

00;19;43;08 - 00;20;01;17
Jonny Dunning
And so therefore, when you try and capture services, you try and manage service, distributed types of systems. It's just not it's not the same, it's not as easy. You can't do catalogs quite so easily because every service is potentially different. You can't therefore do guided buying. So easily. It's just not as easy to commoditize that in that way.

00;20;01;17 - 00;20;22;10
Jonny Dunning
So I think where organizations are procuring services a lot of the time that they're going through some sort of a process, so varying degrees of process, which will mean that the buyers in the organization are contracting with the suppliers. The level of risk and the level of visibility is a sure, you know as well as I do is a huge variance in that.

00;20;22;13 - 00;20;46;18
Jonny Dunning
But even in fairly decent cases, organizations might have the end result might be a statement of work agreement that is, you know, a signed PDF scanned copy that's in a file repository somewhere. So it's very, very difficult for anybody to understand when you've got any type of volume what you're buying. And and then when you feed down to the delivery, you know, is it measured again with a clear deliverables?

00;20;46;18 - 00;21;12;07
Jonny Dunning
Is it measured against those deliverables? You get into all that kind of issue. And so I think that that visibility piece and the capacity is a significant element as to why companies I see companies outsourcing it. But also I think there's an element of freedom in outsourcing as well in a weird way, in the sense that you can kind of if you trying to do it internally, you've got all these hurdles of how different departments are doing things and the existing systems in place.

00;21;12;14 - 00;21;28;16
Jonny Dunning
If you can pass the problem out to a third party, if that's the right situation for your organization, you all, you are getting away from some hurdles. In that sense, you can give it to them. They can use a piece of technology. There's going to have to interface with what you're doing elsewhere, but it kind of takes out of the loop a little bit.

00;21;28;18 - 00;21;59;03
Jonny Dunning
So I feel like there's some value in the change management elements of that and the freedom around using different technology that specifically designed to manage that process. And that gives an advantage to the third party to then be able to say, We're going to do this, start to finish, and we're going to make it scalable so that you can actually see what's happening rather than I feel like most organizations are working up to level, you know, they're understanding what how much they're spending with who, but they don't really know what they're doing or like you say, what they're getting for it.

00;21;59;05 - 00;22;22;24
Mick Feild
I think now you're right. And it goes back to what was it, Reagan's old Ronald Reagan's, I think, trust but verify. I think what we do is we trust a lot. We and we never do the verify component. And that's is a little bit worried. We run very successful organizations. They do great things in the marketplace in different industries.

00;22;22;24 - 00;22;46;19
Mick Feild
We do we're market leaders in doing things, yet we don't have that basic control around whether we're actually getting the value. And I think you're right about I, I think it's part of the evolution of business in general. Like as we've devolved responsibility down the down the though the work stack, as it were, to get as close as possible to the coalface.

00;22;46;19 - 00;23;15;07
Mick Feild
So that way the people who are experts, they're the ones making driving decisions, which I think is very valuable. But in doing so, I think you're right. There's ERP systems of old. They're become more historical tools then, you know, we're able to see what I did the last month or the month before or whatever it is. And whereas I see things like VMs and that where you're actually capturing the process real time, it's upfront and you're able to start to see and be able to go, okay, I can influence that by.

00;23;15;07 - 00;23;43;19
Mick Feild
I can see that we've purchased 15 times with Company X and you know, we should look at that relationship with Company X and say that's more strategic value to us because we do buy so much from you. So instead of doing one Z Tues, let's sit down and talk about how we can get better value for us if we can commit to maybe doing 30 transactions with you a year, well then we'll be able to get better commercial terms around what these arrangements should be.

00;23;43;22 - 00;24;10;16
Mick Feild
And I think that's one of the benefits I think is what you're talking about is this strategic, more strategic sourcing element away from the transactional. And let's start looking at how we actually do the buy, how we actually, you know, shaping those interactions with our key suppliers and making sure we're using them in the right place and then looking at them also to make sure that they're delivering the right value to us.

00;24;10;16 - 00;24;45;19
Mick Feild
And whether it's the transaction or the commercial value around that transaction. So I think you're 100% correct, but I think it's an element of multiple things. But one of them I think is missing is like we've devolved all that responsibility down and we haven't necessarily bought the tools with it. We need to be able to support. And this is where I see organizations like yourselves who build these assets that are able to capture all that sourcing component and be able to provide that visibility information back in real time to an organization to be able to influence that buy.

00;24;45;19 - 00;25;08;06
Mick Feild
Whereas traditionally it was like, Hey, I've got a report a month ago I bought this, Hey, we could have done better. Next time will do better. If you tell me next time, we'll do that. And that's where. Yeah. So I think you're right. It's like getting access to real time data that's actually going to be useful in making decisions.

00;25;08;09 - 00;25;38;23
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, I mean, you've got the real time element of it that is basically giving you warning of stuff going wrong and just facilitating that supply relationship management throughout the life of a project. You know, you're getting you're getting early visibility of cost overruns, you're seeing where things are going wrong, you're seeing you're getting an understanding where internal teams are holding up the supplier, where otherwise the supplier might get blamed and put your assessing supplier performance when they're under delivering in real time.

00;25;38;26 - 00;26;09;16
Jonny Dunning
I mean, for us, we always look at in our system, for example, we've got some really cool stuff around supplier performance management where you can look at quantitative metrics versus qualitative scoring on suppliers on every project and every milestone. So you can compare suppliers within categories across categories, you can compare overall supplier scores. It's incredibly useful. I kind of see that as like the Holy Grail, but it is quite advanced in the sense that to get to that, you've got to nail the process in the first place.

00;26;09;16 - 00;26;44;25
Jonny Dunning
You've got to be able to capture the information in the first place. And that's where for a lot of organizations that just they can't do that because they're trying to operate through these very large kind of top level procurement suites that are not designed to deal with the granularity of the granularity and the flexibility of services procurement. And the teams don't have the capacity to be able to get all over the spend and put the processes in place and manage it all, whereas you give it to a third party and go right, find a technology solution and come up with a plan and and explain to me how are we going to get value out

00;26;44;25 - 00;26;55;08
Jonny Dunning
of this in return Investment. You're giving the problem to someone else to say, We haven't got time to do this, but the net result of us doing it is going to be X times more than the amount it's going to cost us to do it.

00;26;55;10 - 00;27;17;05
Mick Feild
I think. Yeah, you're 100% correct. I think an element there that we should add is the the actual engagement managers. There's hiring managers and that, you know, I hired you know, I hired me to be running code, then all of a sudden Mick is now negotiating some projects and things like that with. And so I'm not necessarily skilled in being able to do that.

00;27;17;10 - 00;27;39;27
Mick Feild
And so what we do is I think by putting these tools in place, we put some rigor and boundaries around those things to make sure that the person is able to get the right level of support, help. You know, the MSP puts the right people in place that are able to coach and guide and educate so that way they can be more educated buyers and they can figure out how to do things a little bit better within the company guidelines.

00;27;39;29 - 00;28;08;09
Mick Feild
It's never going to be perfect, but it is going to be a massive improvement because you're to your point, you're going to end up with better quality contracts, engagements which end up driving much greater value at the end. So I think there's an element in there and that's where I like the idea of the tools to really drive that rigor, like smart tools with AI and all that work around that to make sure that we're collecting the right information at the right time.

00;28;08;11 - 00;28;46;06
Mick Feild
I think it's going to be incredibly valuable. One of the key metrics, though, I think is in any organization you implement these programs is when does the hiring manager start to decline payment. You know, the is and I'm sure you experienced this as well is what happens is an organization sorry a hiring manager engage the organization they're delivering something it's supposed to be delivered on July one and what happens is it just before know 30th of June kind of pops up that they're reaching out saying, we're going to be late, we're going to be delivering late because it's not working.

00;28;46;06 - 00;29;11;02
Mick Feild
It's doing this. I need more information, whatever it is, and it starts to push our push out and eventually they deliver on, I don't know, July 10th or something. After you that engagement, you spend a lot of time coaching them, helping and filling in the gaps, making sure they understand what's going on, maybe doing some they get a prerelease to test, to do whatever it is, but it ends up being delivered effectively two weeks late.

00;29;11;05 - 00;29;38;09
Mick Feild
Then when it comes through for payment, those hiring managers go click will pay. Now, even though they missed the deadline and they might have contracts written where they even have penalties and things like that, they won't enforce the penalty. They'll just go like, I'll pay now, it's okay. And when you go back using the like the tools, like you have, what you're able to do is then ask those hiring managers why, you know, were they good to work with.

00;29;38;09 - 00;29;59;28
Mick Feild
And they'll give you the the feedback that, hey, they were okay. But I had to do a lot of work a lot more than I actually envisaged I needed to do to actually get the product over the line. And they end up delivering a little bit late. But it's functionally, it's kind of okay. And then the question is, well, we're paying for them to delight you.

00;30;00;04 - 00;30;22;00
Mick Feild
You know, it was a policy. It was a close was a thing, and that was okay. You know, it has a few things. It's okay. So it might or might not have met the quality requirements, but we accepted it anyway. And then we've paid them on time. And the question is why didn't you pay them on time? They go, we have an agreement that has a contract that says on this date, I need to pay you and you're going.

00;30;22;00 - 00;30;44;20
Mick Feild
But also in that contract is that if you don't deliver what you're supposed to be getting and of the sufficient quality on time, etc., you don't have to pay like this function or there's clauses in that agreement that help you manage through that sort of process. And why not engaging? But, you know, they get to a point they disagree.

00;30;44;23 - 00;31;07;22
Mick Feild
So by not engaging the procurement team, by not engaging or having any system in place where you're able to track that kind of process and do that, you're not really going to be able to educate the engagement manager, hiring manager on how that buying process should work, what kind of like just throwing him out there and just saying, Hey, good luck based on his, you know, the high level of how you are actually going to purchase and manage through.

00;31;07;23 - 00;31;35;02
Mick Feild
So we don't really help them in that too. We're not really helping our supplier understand that when we go into a contract, we agree that these are the terms and you need to hit those terms for you to get paid. And we don't hold them accountable for that sort of thing. And three, we're not, you know, we're pushing out or absorbing all that extra cost, whether it's, you know, it might push our product release into the market extra months or extra two months or whatever it is.

00;31;35;02 - 00;31;55;01
Mick Feild
So we absorb that revenue loss just because we're trying to be nice people to everyone. And so we're going to learn to now that we have these tools in place and we're collecting this information to manage those tools and manage to what those agreements are like. If we're going to spend all that time know upfront negotiating those things, we're going to stand by it.

00;31;55;03 - 00;32;17;18
Mick Feild
And I think that really takes like a 12 to 18 month kind of cycle for organizations to shift their culture a little bit, to say, excuse me, although I'm partnering with you as a supplier, partnering with you doesn't mean I just accept everything you say. It's like I have goals and objectives I need to treat and I need to manage you accordingly.

00;32;17;18 - 00;32;38;05
Mick Feild
And here's rules of engagement and we need to stick with those things. So I think it takes a little bit of time for that to kick in as well. But once that kicks in, well then you know, we suddenly have all those engagement managers who are driving this increased value into the organization, and that's enormous value to the overall organization.

00;32;38;05 - 00;32;53;10
Mick Feild
We can pick up, you know, has it? Yes, we're probably going to pick up at least a 5 to 10% gain if we just suddenly stop that kind of playing by the nice guy rules, but play by the rules that we agreed to.

00;32;53;12 - 00;33;16;05
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. I mean, I think it's an area that's has huge potential. But when you look at the buying and delivery cycle from, you know, procuring contract delivery of services, there are so many steps where there's so much potential for value to be added all along the way, even if it's just driving a more competitive process where people are just direct, awarding stuff to the same suppliers all the time.

00;33;16;07 - 00;33;35;06
Jonny Dunning
Maybe because all of their suppliers aren't easily visible across the organization where if they're centralized through an outsource provision in a piece of technology, it's easier for them to see what's available and procurement can help guide them so they can be scoring on, you know, what will supplier raise average cost overrun versus supplier B, all these sorts of things.

00;33;35;08 - 00;34;12;01
Jonny Dunning
But also in the in the upfront process of actually defining what's going to be delivered. Like quite often you're getting kind of, you know, people, suppliers, potentially marking their own homework or creating bids that were a self-fulfilling prophecy that we're automatically just going to end up going to them. And so and that's an area where it's really interesting see some of the stuff going on with AI with these large language models where it's basically putting together we've done stuff around scoping with chat, JPT, and I think there's just huge potential in that area to help people kind of create requirements more effectively and and end up with a place to start and things to refine.

00;34;12;08 - 00;34;29;09
Jonny Dunning
And obviously procurement can get involved in that process more if, if what's happening is going through a systemized process where maybe if it's above a 50 k buy, you know, then has to go through some sort of review where somebody procurement just has to get notified and it looks at requirement and says, well, you know, you've kind of covered these main areas.

00;34;29;09 - 00;35;02;10
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, that's great. Off you go. Or they maybe give a bit of advice on structure and on content. But but also that can be done. I can help with that. So there are lots of these kind of value points all the way through the process. And it's like if you start in the right way, you build up this value aggregates all the way through to that holy grail of ultimately being able to say, when we're doing these types of projects, these are these are the supplies we should be thinking about or typically when in this particular area of the business, we're always getting cost overruns or we've got this big supplier that's got a great

00;35;02;10 - 00;35;38;04
Jonny Dunning
relationship with the C-suite. They do loads of stuff for us in finance, but we're spending tens of millions a year with them in marketing. Why is that? We've got these other suppliers that are doing a better job in marketing. Why is why is that spend just going over there? So it allows a lean procurement team, which as you as you mentioned earlier, most procurement teams are extremely lean and allows them to manage the strategic element of a much greater volume of spend because they've got a system effectively doing the legwork and hopefully making life easier for the buyers, the hiring managers, by managers and and the suppliers at the same time.

00;35;38;07 - 00;36;11;20
Jonny Dunning
But automating those interactions and just giving them control and process and then you guys kind of passing them back a lot of information which they can then use strategically. And I think that's that's where that's where the market needs to get to. But for a lot of organizations that kind of at square one when it comes to services procurement in the sense that there's a lot of stuff going on apart from some really top level big suppliers doing strategic stuff, it's just impossible for them to keep on top of it because it's not in a system and it's just all happening too fast and it's too complicated.

00;36;11;22 - 00;36;39;26
Mick Feild
And it's like there's a lot of activity, this huge amount of activity. It's got to happen yesterday. There's a lot of pressure, a lot of visibility, and it just gets swamped. So I think you're 100% correct. And like, this is where I think there's a really good place around ISP's here where they kind of they provide the staffing solution or the team solution has to have procurement support.

00;36;39;26 - 00;37;12;02
Mick Feild
Like they really need to have procurement professionals in there. There are actually experience and I understand how that buying process works. They're able to kind of leap in a little bit and especially I would propose that during that first six, 12, 18 month period that they take a real hands on approach and really supplement that procurement to internal procurement team to make sure that it's got the support they need, the initial bandwidth, so they're able to kind of work through this process and kind of evolve that solution for them.

00;37;12;04 - 00;37;38;17
Mick Feild
I, I can't stress enough that, you know, that the time like you've hit upon it, it really is like that. The time to load the boat and to get all these things done. Every organization wants their stuff done immediately. The internal approvals are just seen as overhead. I've done deal, I've talked to my supplier. It could get done and I appreciate that is a significant thing finding the person who's actually going to deliver on it.

00;37;38;20 - 00;38;07;08
Mick Feild
But then the internal processing to get approvals and to get the people on site to do that, you know, that's seen as overhead and that's a burden. And it's not, you know, it's not being positioned correctly. It really is not just approval, it's authority to spend the money. Is it the right spend? Are we doing all our checks and balances, to your point, making sure the right supplies are being used, making sure that value in the contracts there, whether it's commercial or whether, you know, the tens are actually going to be favorable long term.

00;38;07;08 - 00;38;38;02
Mick Feild
Is it with the oh, is it time for you know, is the schedule of the actual deliverable going to meet with the organizational goals, etc.? All those things need to be taken into account and done. It's not gone. And talked to Joe Blow. He took me to lunch. It's a great deal and I'm going ahead. There's a lot of work and that rigor is needs to be that it really does We But to your point, there's a lot of opportunity we're using the tools is why I'm with you.

00;38;38;02 - 00;39;05;01
Mick Feild
I'm a convert on the thing that is going to help with a lot of that low level. It's not going to give you, you know, the total solution that needs oversight and everything around it. But it is going to be able to take out that low level, that first cut where we're able to build contracts, make sure that the right conditions are in place, making sure that every every benefit that you're looking for is in every benefit they are every thing that you want ruled out is out.

00;39;05;03 - 00;39;23;10
Mick Feild
All those sort of things, all that transactional stuff that we need eyes at the moment to look at. It's going to help in that tremendously. And maybe we can turn that, you know, the turnaround time from writing the original agreement to signed off. And you know, you always hear the people, I can get it done in 4 hours.

00;39;23;10 - 00;39;34;06
Mick Feild
I can walk it around the office and get it all done. Well, tremendous. But I think if we can get it done in probably a couple of days on average, then we're doing a fantastic job.

00;39;34;09 - 00;40;03;11
Jonny Dunning
100%. I mean, anecdotal, anecdotal feedback, the the the I've already heard about is if you're using the right tool to help support your scope creation, you know, that would then fit into probably the standardized ACW terms. But the scope creation using the right tools and and this is something that you know, is why we're doing what we're doing with air in this area.

00;40;03;14 - 00;40;24;07
Jonny Dunning
You're talking reducing it from like three months to three days in terms of that. That's just that turnaround time of actually getting the scope together because procrastination, you've got to get down to it. You starting with nothing. It's it's just like all these things to think about. You put it off, it's on email, you go around the houses, you might ask somebody for if you got somewhere to start and you've got the right structure.

00;40;24;07 - 00;40;46;10
Jonny Dunning
But the key with with work and with AI is being able to use it in a in an informed manner in the sense that these tools to a certain extent are kind of general, are in some ways they're kind of a bit dumb. They can process very large amounts of information, but you need to tell them how how you how you want them to process it.

00;40;46;12 - 00;41;04;14
Jonny Dunning
So so that I think, is the magic It really is in how you utilize these tools to make the user experience the best it possibly can be for that very specific use case. And I think when you look at how lean procurement teams are and how much of the 20 trillion in spend, that's a lot. That's a lot of transactions.

00;41;04;14 - 00;41;28;27
Jonny Dunning
That's a lot of stuff going on. If you can automate some of that and just make it quicker and simpler for people, then it just allows where the big gap is in services, procurement of services versus procurement goods is as you say, ultimately it's about realizing value. And if you can streamline some of these things, then procurement teams can focus much more on what's our relationship like with the supplier, Why we why are we missing delivery in some of these areas?

00;41;28;29 - 00;41;54;29
Jonny Dunning
You know, are our choices the right choices and really look forward and actually do things like horizon planning, you know, strategically the next next 12 months in that That's scary. Yeah. Next 12 months we're going to have these types of projects coming up. We've got supplier capacity and capability in these areas. We've got some great partner suppliers, but actually we're going to have some we've got new areas coming out, new products, new changes to legislation, you changing technology.

00;41;54;29 - 00;42;15;21
Jonny Dunning
So we need to expand our supply chain on this. There's so much potential, but but the potential is only can only be realized when the basics are done correctly, which is why I think a lot of companies are not through any fault of their own. And on some organizations, ultimately you're going to take this challenge on themselves and say, We'll do it internally.

00;42;15;27 - 00;42;35;18
Jonny Dunning
We're going to we're going to buy in our own systems, we're going to build our own processes. And and that's that's all that's our decision. Whereas, as you say, other organizations are going to look at this and go, we've got we've got a real problem here, but we just don't have the time or capacity or the kind of freedom around technology to be able to just sort this out.

00;42;35;18 - 00;42;51;28
Jonny Dunning
It's too complicated. One of the questions I had for you was, do you do you find that from an MSP perspective on a client's coming to you with these problems, or is it more about kind of going out to them and educating them, or is it a bit of a mix?

00;42;52;01 - 00;43;16;23
Mick Feild
It's a bit of a mix. There's definitely there's definitely clients who are in the boat of they realize they have a problem and opportunity that they need to work on. So some of them do come into the very clear and you know, we have a problem with we need better throughput. We're not receiving our volume. We it's a bit of a black hole.

00;43;16;23 - 00;43;38;25
Mick Feild
We kind of think we're okay, but we don't know. And that drives the conversation. The fear of, the unknown. And you can see it when, you know, you start getting to the next stage, you're going, okay, well, can you share some information? And then it might take two, three weeks for an organization to be able to pull together what they spend data is and which I get.

00;43;38;25 - 00;43;59;22
Mick Feild
I understand, you know, like if it were to press a button to get it, they would have a pretty good system in play. And we probably talk to them about how they actually operate. But in the end, it really is they they don't have that everything that data available to them freely comes from disparate systems. They have to put it all together.

00;43;59;22 - 00;44;23;20
Mick Feild
And then when they put it together, they don't know what it means, like they can't figure stuff out. And it's just not through. Any lack of desire or anything is just it's too hot. It's really difficult for them to do. So We get a lot of those kind of conversations, but there are ones where we knock on the door and we're talking to people and just highlighting these things and they're going, really?

00;44;23;20 - 00;44;42;02
Mick Feild
But, you know, we think we have it. Okay? And when you're talking a little bit more, you're able to kind of kind of hit a few buttons on that. The point where they might realize, well, maybe we do have a gap here and be able to talk to. But generally, a lot of organizations kind of know there's a gap there.

00;44;42;04 - 00;45;06;12
Mick Feild
It's a known gap. It's but it's a you know, they they run the risk, as it were, Like they know that they're okay. We're tracking all these other things. And so we're we're you know, we're not in too bad shape. But they were we're really turning away money at that point. Like, instead of just scan, we're okay. We're actually instead of being turning this from a negative, we can turn it into positive.

00;45;06;12 - 00;45;40;19
Mick Feild
We can use it as a lever for that organization to really improve what their bottom line looks like. And to your point, stabilize on suppliers. It's like your key point really. Or you comment before about the suppliers and knowing who the suppliers are going to be in your pool, who are your preferred suppliers, etc., and knowing their capabilities and being able to advertise that into the organization is really key rather than having people wasting time reaching, you know, dialing, searching the web, trying to find all these people.

00;45;40;21 - 00;46;22;05
Mick Feild
Let's use the capabilities of MSPs and what's in the VMs, etc., and we're collecting all that data. Let's look at how we're actually processing them and how we grade those organizations and be able to pick them out and figure out exactly how we're going to deal with this. You know, you don't necessarily even if you you know, I've seen organizations focus on particular suppliers because they like what their objective is going to be, whether they are developing a new IP, whether we they want to partner with them and actually funnel and work, knowing that, yeah, they might not be the cheapest, but we want to grow this because we know strategically in six months, 12

00;46;22;05 - 00;46;58;06
Mick Feild
months, that's who we want to be going with and we want to partner with them and see them to make sure that they're going to develop to our requirements. And so this organization, you know, like you're able to track through that process and make sure you identify those organizations. The same with, you know, diversity equity organizations, those who tag you, those how you're actually feeding work to them rather than, you know, just maybe looking at numbers or going out and searching for doing things, being able to cultivate those those suppliers and making sure they're going to see your future needs so you can actually identify and see the things through.

00;46;58;07 - 00;47;15;29
Mick Feild
And so I think a lot of that again, goes back to collecting the information that you talked about, you know, and it's like collecting the data, figuring out what that is and then feeding it back. So that way people are able to start making informed decisions about how they want to operate the business.

00;47;16;02 - 00;47;38;00
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, the organization I personally, from my own experience of talking to CPO procurement, also different people in procurement teams within all sorts of different organizations globally. Anybody who buys services, I'd say I've virtually never come across anybody who's actually got this button down. How important it is for them as an organization right now is a different thing.

00;47;38;04 - 00;48;02;18
Jonny Dunning
Whether they recognize it as a problem is a different thing. You know, a lot of organizations will say we're happy working to budget, so as long as a PR manager matches up with a payment, we we're not worrying about that at the moment. But there's they are ignoring, you know, billions in in in basically potential cost savings. And on some organizations that don't think they've got a problem it's kind of like don't know what they don't know.

00;48;02;23 - 00;48;27;18
Jonny Dunning
They've never delved into it. They just think it's too difficult. It's not even something that some organizations would consider as an option to get on top of it, because it's just it's too complicated. We can't even be thinking about that right now. But another question I was going to ask you is so so whether it's an organization approaching and MSP or vice versa, there's this interesting positioning where you've got, say, for example, you've got an existing relationship.

00;48;27;21 - 00;48;51;21
Jonny Dunning
The MSP might be delivering services around contingent workforce, clearly a core area of expertise for MSP organizations is it's kind of their bread and butter where they where they've originated from. So so within that client organization, there are going to be potentially it might be like a contingent workforce category manager or it might be, you know, an air and talent function, but are dealing specifically with that.

00;48;51;21 - 00;49;13;11
Jonny Dunning
MSP. I always find it interesting in terms of how that works when it spreads out to services, you clearly need to have the right interface within the MSP, i.e. somebody like yourself who has expertise specifically in services, procurement. You know, you're buying an organic outputs from an organization rather than buying an individual's time. It's very different, as we discussed earlier.

00;49;13;13 - 00;49;44;17
Jonny Dunning
But you also potentially are going to have a different interface within that client organization. It could be, I don't know, somebody who's coordinating everything like a procurement excellence or center of excellence type lead, or it could be a senior category manager or it could be maybe even a chief procurement officer. But is there is how does that work in terms of that balance of like the different stakeholders that have expertise within, say, contingent workforce and and services procurement within both the MSP and the client organization?

00;49;44;17 - 00;49;48;07
Jonny Dunning
How does that kind of Marriott?

00;49;48;10 - 00;50;16;21
Mick Feild
So I think yeah, the you're right, there are different skills like that. They're commencing a procurement skill set as opposed to a recruiting set. And so they do they meet in in a different way into the client organization. You're right the services procurement is more of a business to business transaction kind of relationship rather than hiring manager to an individual.

00;50;16;24 - 00;50;53;26
Mick Feild
So it's a business, a business function and that usually takes place is a slightly higher level within the organization. So I on the what I used to always favor is in the procurement team, they, the category managers, they understand how the process works. They understand how that purchasing process, kind of just the transactional nature of it works. But what they are able to do then is be able to communicate in the terms with the procurement team that it's more focused towards procurement, less to hiring managers.

00;50;53;27 - 00;51;21;12
Mick Feild
They are hiring managers, provide the content and the detail for whatever the transaction is going to be, but then they deal more with the centralized procurement function to make sure that that transaction gets formulated correctly and then executed correctly. So it takes place, you know, at slightly elevated kind of positioning it the reporting and all the detail processing around that is slightly different.

00;51;21;12 - 00;51;43;04
Mick Feild
Again, it's less you know, around the price point kind of conversation. It obviously we have all detail around what the, you know, the commercial value of the program of of the activity is going to be. But we're reporting in to your point around what the forecast is on it, because they are able to start doing projected spend kind of models out or how that kind of looks.

00;51;43;04 - 00;52;12;07
Mick Feild
You're able to stop forecasting out a little bit more robustly and you're able to start doing a lot of that projection work. And so I find that procurement leads are much more interested in that kind of information about where they're going and who they're spending with. So they're able to then start looking at the internal contractual relationship side with suppliers and start to look at those as activities rather than the transactional component of that.

00;52;12;09 - 00;52;23;17
Mick Feild
So it's a it's a different kind of relationship, fundamentally doing the same thing, but it is a little bit different with the different internal clientele that they have to deal with. Does that make.

00;52;23;17 - 00;53;08;14
Jonny Dunning
Sense? It does. It does, because so it's a MSPs, a Problem Solvers MSP to solving problems. They're good at putting a process in place, bringing using the right technology to enable a solution that is a people and technology solution that takes a problem and comes back with an outcome that drives value. So whether you're applying that to management of contingent or whether you're applying that to management of services procurement, it's the same thing, but different slightly different processes, different things to consider, different legal issues and and different expertise, but ultimately still similar problem solving exercise.

00;53;08;16 - 00;53;25;18
Jonny Dunning
One of the things that I find interesting is what I see is like a lack of uniformity within the industry in the sense that firstly, if you look at services procurement from the context of an MSP, you and I talking about that it could be it could be procurement of I.T. services, it could be legal, it could be marketing.

00;53;25;21 - 00;53;47;25
Jonny Dunning
It potentially, in some cases could be like construction services or even works within a construction program. It's so diverse when you look across the public sector, across the private sector. But organizations, when they outsource it, they'll go in their heads. It's services, procurement that they're outsourcing. But when when they're thinking about it internally, I don't think they think about it in the same way.

00;53;47;28 - 00;54;10;26
Jonny Dunning
You know, who owns services, procurement within an organization. It's well, it's across five or ten different categories. And it's not like one person's problem with the organization. So I always wonder, I, I tend to see a lack of uniformity in which stakeholder it's not like it's going to be the same stakeholder in every organization that's that's coming to you with this problem or you're liaising with.

00;54;10;28 - 00;54;29;13
Mick Feild
Right? Yeah, Like I try to buy from Kate that process a little bit. And the the buying process itself is is pretty similar kind of process. You know have a requirement how you're going to sell it, what it's going to be, how much it's going to cost me when it's going to be delivered and then the execution of it.

00;54;29;13 - 00;54;56;11
Mick Feild
So that contractual kind of process is kind of pretty uniform. The actual, you know, the actual deliverable itself. So you're right, it could be I'm building a website, a building, a building, or I'm doing landscaping, whatever it is, and they're all different. And so though that detail captured into the into the contract is really around the, you know, the work that's going to be done.

00;54;56;11 - 00;55;14;29
Mick Feild
But the actual framework around it is not overly different. And I think sometimes that gets blurred a little bit where people focus, hey, you know, I'm cutting down my trees, so therefore that's going to be done this way. And has that ever been the actual buying that the contractor in place can be kind of standardized a little bit around that.

00;55;14;29 - 00;55;40;12
Mick Feild
So it's not that big a difference. There is a difference without doubt. But it's really around, you know, not the framework of the agreement, but the details within that agreement. So I think sometimes it gets, I think, overloaded a little bit. It's, you know, because it is dealing with different topics and so therefore it must be different. But I think sometimes that gets a little bit kind of skewed.

00;55;40;12 - 00;56;00;23
Mick Feild
Second goal is I like to think of the procurement team. I always go back and use some very smart hands. These aren't people who are just going to be transaction processing. They really can't be just, Hey, he's a wreck. I'm just putting it through the system and doing it. This has to be people who are knowledgeable in procurement process.

00;56;00;23 - 00;56;29;03
Mick Feild
They understand the category management type people, so they are able to really appreciate the process going through it. They're able to pick up all those issues or hiccups when they do ease on the on those transactions themselves or when they're looking at negotiation frameworks and everything else, they're able to kind of pick out things that are important. And this goes back to again, comment from a much earlier was around the organizations don't have that capacity.

00;56;29;03 - 00;56;51;21
Mick Feild
They don't have those people in play at the moment. Everyone would love to be able to do that within their team, but the procurement team is only of a set size. They're getting a whole lot of work being pushed towards them. They don't have the ability to scan and look at all these things and give them the due diligence so they use a risk based approach where they go, we'll look at the high ones, the lower ones, we're just passing through, give them a cursory look.

00;56;51;23 - 00;57;17;24
Mick Feild
And by engaging with the MSP, with these smart hands folks, they're able to kind of look at things and be able to augment the procurement team in their function and be able to capture a lot more and also drive a lot more rigor into the system. Also use it as a a process for educating the engaged management, the hiring manager around how they should be constructing things because it is a long term process to change the culture of an organization.

00;57;17;27 - 00;57;28;17
Mick Feild
It is that 12 months, 18 months buying, so they stop doing what they're doing. It's operating within the guidelines of what their organizational purchasing policies are.

00;57;28;19 - 00;57;58;07
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think the as I said this, the stakeholder thing is interesting in the sense that I guess it could be a category manager coming to an MSP, it could be a head of procurement, it could be a CPO potentially, but it's clearly a procurement problem which, which, depending on how the organization sets out, might be very separate from the people dealing with continued workforce or actually it might be very closely aligned or it could in some cases even be similar teams.

00;57;58;10 - 00;58;14;16
Jonny Dunning
What would you say is the harder side of the process to solve? So if we look at it, it's kind of like Pre-contract post contract. What what in your experience is the harder part of that equation to solve in terms of putting the right processes in place and getting on top of it?

00;58;14;19 - 00;58;35;25
Mick Feild
I think the I mean, I think the contract, I think we're lucky there's some really good platforms out there that we can leverage that are able to like your own, is able to once the data gets into it, it enables it provides visibility, you're able to see what it is and you're able to put controls in place to make sure everything works.

00;58;35;25 - 00;59;02;10
Mick Feild
So I think buying, being able to leverage that, that the technology is really fundamental to any success. I think anything that happens outside the technology causes us grief. That's where we start to get in trouble. That's where we start to find that, you know, people are negotiating deals, they're doing things and making offices around stuff that, you know, just can't be supported by the organization.

00;59;02;10 - 00;59;30;10
Mick Feild
So a lot of that pre work causes us problems. I'm one, so I always take the position if I can get it into the tool, any ETL into that process will then I can have success from there because I can drive that we can control outside that. I'm like, all I'm doing is just picking out the sign, advising, you know, Hey Jonny, you should not be doing this like or have you thought about using another supplier or doing things.

00;59;30;12 - 00;59;52;22
Mick Feild
So the only way around that is like education and a constant outreach to really try to sure that the engagement managers understand how they should be purchasing, what are the options that are available to them. But once it gets into the tool, like you, then we can drive and we are in control. So yeah, like it seems like a little bit of a cop out, but I apologize.

00;59;52;25 - 00;59;53;28
Mick Feild
But it really makes sense.

00;59;53;28 - 00;59;55;24
Jonny Dunning
It makes sense. I mean, like you say.

00;59;55;26 - 01;00;21;05
Mick Feild
That the tool drives the rigor. That's the you know, that that's the enforcement and making sure that the DMS is able to support that buying like it's set up correctly. It really is catered towards what that that organization needs and we have the right checks and balances in place that well then that there I it's lot easier like.

01;00;21;12 - 01;00;47;01
Jonny Dunning
So setting up the processes in the first place making. Sure all the pre work that's where the pre-planning the the the change management really comes into play and and a lot of the people side element of what the MSP providing and how they're helping that organization shape those processes and roll those processes out because as you say once you've got it into the tool, that's what those tools are designed for design to control the process, capture the information so you can then utilize that.

01;00;47;04 - 01;01;18;22
Jonny Dunning
It's kind of like I said, you know, it's in some ways it's the further you get down the process, the more it is reliant on the previous steps. So you got to start in the right way. So yeah, I think it's a good point there that there's less control. One thing that the quite often still comes up and I see this is partly a symptom of the fact that sometimes services procurement programs that are given to MSPs can be very kind of closely positioned to contingent workforce.

01;01;18;24 - 01;01;49;12
Jonny Dunning
So so they might be like almost a little bit of gray area where it's not necessarily like John, it projects it might be independent, you know, consultancy, small consultancies or small consultants providing these services. And in those cases or in some cases within MSP programs, worker tracking is something that is very heavily focused on. And I kind of if I take a bigger view of procurement across complex services categories, I feel like that diminishes in importance because it's all about getting an outcome from an organization.

01;01;49;14 - 01;01;56;27
Jonny Dunning
But I just wonder what your your your thoughts were in terms of the importance worker tracking and why that's important.

01;01;57;00 - 01;02;24;24
Mick Feild
Yeah. So, know, it's incredibly important for a couple of reasons. Just from a risk mitigation, it's really important just knowing who's on network, who's talking, doing, you know, who's doing what to where, to whom sort of thing. I think like that really came to the fore. I remember talking about this couple of years ago and it really got, you know, people would just kind of nod nicely and move on.

01;02;24;26 - 01;02;42;21
Mick Feild
But then when COVID hit and everyone suddenly went on remote work and they're trying to figure out what's going on, suddenly it really drove home the point that we need to know where everyone is, what they're doing, how they're connected to our networks, what's what are we got? Do we structure our work, what risk do we have, etc.?

01;02;42;24 - 01;03;17;06
Mick Feild
So it really kind of is there's a positive that came out of COVID. Well, then it really did highlight the fact that we need to have better controls around how it is, who's on doing our touching in that work and how that kind of world works out. Then I like to also as a side thing is I like to track time because whether I'm billing against time or not, like as proposed to the different clients at times is we can even have statement of work milestone activities, but we have non billable timesheets.

01;03;17;09 - 01;03;35;02
Mick Feild
So way is you're able to kind of like figure out what's the level of effort for people to do. You know, like they're putting in 9 hours, 9 hours, 9 hours and, then you're able to kind of back in and say, okay, well then our cost kind of is right on what our overall cost of that project is.

01;03;35;02 - 01;03;51;11
Mick Feild
We're kind of able to factor in and see that we're kind of getting the value we're looking for. And so I think it's really important to kind of from a back in the napkin kind of calculation, it'd be really good to get that information. You're able to start at loading, then you can then start to use in future projects.

01;03;51;11 - 01;04;11;02
Mick Feild
If something similar came up, you got to look at and go, Oh, look, it's 500 hours of this took to do this. Well, then you know, it's comparable effort. So you can kind of like do your own budget kind of calculations and make sure you're right. But I you know, I like to track workers just time and making sure who's and who's doing what.

01;04;11;06 - 01;04;31;21
Mick Feild
I appreciate the fact that, you know, there's organizations and projects where not applicable but it's kind of horses for courses. You know, like you said, I'm on a project that, you know, had 2000 workers on it. I'm pretty sure, you know, like ten might go by the wayside, being able to get them to track time. But, you know, you never know.

01;04;31;21 - 01;04;41;08
Mick Feild
It depends on how important it is to the organization, how important that project's going to be, and how important it is for you to really know that the value is being delivered.

01;04;41;10 - 01;05;20;11
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, it's a really interesting area and you make two very good points there. Absolutely. There's the risk data compliance, you know, i.t security side of things of knowing, you know, who are the individuals that are interacting with our systems, our intranet, etc., entering our buildings, all that sort of stuff. And then there's also this concept of who's on the pitch in everything that we're doing, who's on the pitch, representing our organization, working on behalf of other people for our organization, etc., particularly with the kind of worker regulation side of things as well, keeping an eye on that compliance.

01;05;20;14 - 01;05;43;25
Jonny Dunning
But that's an interesting point you made about the kind worker tracking background sanity check in the sense of, you know, organizations ultimately want to look at a piece of work that needs to be done and say, what's the most effective way for us to do this? Do we have the internal capacity? Do we have the internal capability? And if so, is it more effective to do it that way, or is it going to be more cost effective to get a contractor in?

01;05;43;25 - 01;05;59;00
Jonny Dunning
How much is that going to work out if we get it done as a an outsourced outcome based project? You know, okay, we might be paying a bit more, but there should be less chance of it taking longer than we expect, etc., etc., etc.. So I think that's a really interesting one. But this is where it comes down to it.

01;05;59;00 - 01;06;27;23
Jonny Dunning
You know, companies are spending hundreds of millions, billions on this per year on services per year. Once they start getting the data, they can start looking at things like this using, you know, numerical, numerical based decision making to really, really improve what they're spending. And it's, you know, a chief procurement officer is in a very difficult position if they're under pressure to cut costs and then they're looking at services and they've got no visibility, they're just going to have to say cut costs in these areas.

01;06;28;00 - 01;06;40;20
Jonny Dunning
But I don't know what they're getting in those areas. So they could be cutting off stuff that's amazing consulting advice that's really driving their bottom line or helping them launch new products. And if they can't see that, they could be cutting off the nose to spite their face.

01;06;40;23 - 01;07;06;26
Mick Feild
Yeah, No, unfortunately, it happens Like organizations kind of make those decisions. It's yeah, that kind of profit versus growth type is that kind of they're I'm not saying it's black or white, but that they shift that needle a little bit one way or the other. And so you're right. They come in and they go, Hey, we need a 5% saving and we'll just take a 5% cut, you know, across the board.

01;07;06;26 - 01;07;36;03
Mick Feild
And every supplier is going to be 5% cheaper and you're going, well, that doesn't quite work out because, you know, we have no data to measure. And I like to point, though, you would just make is like I really the procurement team, if you know, MSPs are able to turn up, if they turn up with their tools, the right tool, the right team as it's installed and done, what you're able to do is make sure that we're collecting the right data.

01;07;36;05 - 01;07;56;29
Mick Feild
It becomes real actionable information for the procurement team to do things. So they stop looking at the, Hey, you know, I've bought six widgets or something this month and it's with three suppliers that work's already done for them. It's leveraging the power of the technology to be able to deliver on those things. You're able to see all those things.

01;07;57;02 - 01;08;18;17
Mick Feild
All of a sudden, the procurement team is starting to make more strategic decisions about like how to manage the business, and this is where it becomes a real lever. I am, you know, where we're trying to position the organization for sale. So do we shift to make more profit than over growth at the moment? So in that way, a balance sheet looks a little bit better.

01;08;18;17 - 01;09;00;19
Mick Feild
So how do we do that? And they're able to be more strategic in some of those conversations. So I really think there's power in making sure to getting that technology in place, capturing that information, relieving their procurement team from their routine rote tasks, that transactional stuff, and then enabling them to really start kind of look at the strategic direction of the organization procurements, not necessarily like it's about buying, but it's about buying in a strategic manner and using that as an a strategic level of the organization rather just the transaction of getting somebody through the door.

01;09;00;21 - 01;09;24;07
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. And procurement are so central to buy an organization functions, even though it's a relatively young business function. And penetration into areas like marketing, for example, came later. They were the center of so much information, they touched so many different departments and they're dealing with what's happening inside the business and what's happening outside the business and how the two are interacting.

01;09;24;07 - 01;09;52;05
Jonny Dunning
So it's it's a very pivotal position. So so one of the things I was going to ask you was about just how you've seen the kind of MSP programs in services procurement specifically change time and whether you feel that there are any opportunities that are being missed currently or kind of where it's going to get to. So just in that kind of transition, where do you think we are in that cycle?

01;09;52;05 - 01;09;55;18
Jonny Dunning
What's what's changed since you've been involved with it?

01;09;55;21 - 01;10;24;00
Mick Feild
Well, I think there are. That's an interesting question. I think there's a lot of transition away. First of all, just get data, do transactions, etc. And it became very routine. And so what we're doing, I think in now as an industry is really trying to get up into that upstream space, helping with the sourcing, helping that because people realize that's really where the goal is.

01;10;24;02 - 01;10;45;26
Mick Feild
All the gold is. That's really where you can influence the actual transaction. You can start to put behaviors in place that are really going to help with not just the car, buy the future buys, helping educate things and start to really drive some much more valuable interactions with suppliers. So I think a lot of people now starting to look at that.

01;10;45;26 - 01;11;18;04
Mick Feild
The once the contract started, that's very transactional so they're all starting to see that, you know, that's just routine tasking. Do I see that the future of MSP being a little bit comes down to that smart hands and partnership? I see it being much more closely ingrained with the procurement organization. I that there's going to be less or less emphasis on the transactional because that's already in place.

01;11;18;04 - 01;11;42;04
Mick Feild
It's how do we really partner with you? How do we really start driving some of those more important decisions as we're talking about just before? How do we figure out how to use the procurement as a true lever? How do we based on what your organizational objectives are? So this year, next year, five year plan, how do we shape, you know, your buying practices?

01;11;42;04 - 01;12;05;29
Mick Feild
How are we going to help the organization get to those those goals? So I see that more as more of a strategic kind of shift, as, you know, the Accenture's of the world and KPMG and all that are already in that space. That's within the kind of that's important. But other than that, how do they help with the strategic direction and guide and do things?

01;12;06;01 - 01;12;23;21
Mick Feild
And I think that's where the MSP is. And, you know, some of the technology is going to start pushing into. I think that's the next space. I think it's going to be a closing of that gap between what those organizations do and the traditional MSP suppliers. And I think it's kind of.

01;12;23;21 - 01;13;10;17
Jonny Dunning
Like a two way movement in some of this stuff. Isn't that when you've got the big consultancies getting close to what the MSPs do? And likewise, I think the comment you made earlier about services procurement being a big nut to crack, it's it's a multifaceted nut and it is very large, massive spend, very complicated and I think in some cases the barrier for organizations is where the bar is too high in a sense that if a program and this is where it's kind of interesting to get your take on where there are any potentially missed opportunity, because I feel like there are potentially missed opportunities for MSPs where you're not dealing with $1,000,000,000 program, but

01;13;10;17 - 01;13;37;15
Jonny Dunning
you but you might be dealing with a significant program opportunity, but the organization isn't ready. Just kind of like, you know, eat the whole way all at once. And that's it feels like sometimes is a bit of a barrier to entry for organizations where it's like if you're going to do it, the complexity in doing it and the cost in doing it is going to be so high that you're going to have to get massive buy in and it's going to have to cover, you know, a massive of your spend.

01;13;37;18 - 01;13;44;08
Jonny Dunning
For it to be a viable thing to do. Is that does that is that ever frustrating? Do you agree with that?

01;13;44;08 - 01;14;11;21
Mick Feild
Firstly, I agree with that. I think excuse me. I think the whole trust me, you know, like come in with a nice glossy and here it is. I know the numbers are great. Trust me on this thing. Like it only goes so far. At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. And this is where some of the organization and, some of the DMS suppliers and you're one of them, I think is really identified this gap.

01;14;11;25 - 01;14;42;03
Mick Feild
And so what you're able to do is this it's kind of almost a try before you buy a type approach kind of thing, you're able to see what the value is, be able to get in, use the tool early. I like I've pitched this a number of times and it gets a lot of interest from a high end all the way down to small organizations around how do we prove it, How do we demonstrate that what we say is what it's going to be?

01;14;42;03 - 01;15;02;23
Mick Feild
And you need to give MSPs? I feel need to really step up in this space and kind of like prove it somehow. And I think there's huge opportunity to be able to kind of like demonstrate that sort of thing, you know, being able to like, let's put a handful of transactions or one transaction through. So the the barrier to entry, we have to figure out how to really drop that.

01;15;02;23 - 01;15;28;16
Mick Feild
So that way we can kind of set up, push it through the system. They're able to see how it kind of works, push a couple through. They can get a, you know, like five on five, six transactions through the system. They're able to see how the process works, what is going to be the savings for them on just an efficiency gain and then be able to then build upon that, you know, and say, okay, once we have this, you have confidence we can do that.

01;15;28;16 - 01;15;50;01
Mick Feild
Well, then let's let's take the next step. And I think the progression is really showing. We show our operational capabilities and we start helping you with the sourcing and the and we start building into that strategic side. So then eventually we end up having the more meaningful conversations, as we talked about earlier. But I really think that's the gap.

01;15;50;04 - 01;16;21;06
Mick Feild
Like that is the way to get in. That's the way to really help to show that it's not just pretty words and everything else like this where we leave behind what we're actually selling. There is real value in it. So I, I think that's I wouldn't surprise me if you see a lot of organizations kind of shifting to this model in the next probably 12 months, eight months across the board, it becomes quite standard where you get to try a little bit and see how it kind of works.

01;16;21;08 - 01;16;48;21
Mick Feild
You know, I know it's it's a lot of work, you know, especially when some of the big in town DMS say it's 14 weeks or 18 weeks or whatever it is to do set up and install. Yeah, that's, that's a I think the market's going to push that so that way, you know, that's going to have to change because, you know, nobody wants to, you know, wait 18 weeks and bet the house on something and then have to back out of it.

01;16;48;21 - 01;17;06;07
Mick Feild
What they need to be able to do is sample it tested, works. It's the whole agile type approach. Go to test, try, validate, make sure it all kind of builds and works. And I think that's going to be the opportunity moving forward for next, like I said, 12, 18 months.

01;17;06;10 - 01;17;36;02
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, really interesting one another. I'll be interested just to get your take on it might be kind of an interesting one to kind of wrap things up a little bit really. But within within some MSP is you know, their, their function around providing services services, procurement MSP has been around a few years and. There's certain things that are established and it will have grown out of the demand and it have started in a very transactional manner.

01;17;36;09 - 01;18;02;29
Jonny Dunning
As you say, the aim is to move it towards a more strategic delivery type approach. But if you could kind of rewind with all of the information that you have now, if you're coming into an MSP and they're setting up kind of adding services procurement to their portfolio, what are the kind of what would you say with the lessons that you've learned along the way that would maybe make that process easier or more or more effective?

01;18;03;01 - 01;18;40;22
Mick Feild
Yeah, that is an interesting question. The I think yeah, So I think there's been a couple of missteps in general life and the industry is kind of corrected. It's gone along. But there were a couple of missteps with that that I think the on on the MSPs. I think they just the initial kick off of that like this is just another line of business and we can just added in without necessarily resourcing it in the right way.

01;18;40;22 - 01;18;58;13
Mick Feild
I think there was a misstep associated with that. I think so. And know the industry shifted now, wanting to be more procurement based kind of they recognize that there is a difference and so it needs different skill sets. So I think that that was a ambiguity. So I was going back to day one that would be starting with procurement people.

01;18;58;13 - 01;19;22;15
Mick Feild
I'd be definitely starting with there's value in that try before you buy type of approach. I like I think this and we probably went into early kind of like everyone did. They kind of looked at these things. The numbers are here, especially like you're trying to do 2 trillion around. But you know, even CIA publishes those numbers as well.

01;19;22;15 - 01;19;48;01
Mick Feild
Big number and everyone got so excited about it goes walk in and we'll just take everything So I think there was a little bit wee bit was way too much early and it was like trust us we know what we're doing. So I think it was if we were able to structure the team correctly with the right skill set, be able to get in and say, okay, let's take those baby steps, let's take the transaction through, let's demonstrate that value immediately.

01;19;48;01 - 01;20;10;20
Mick Feild
And then if we're able to take from contract to invoice process, that's minimal impact to add to the culture of the organization, how they procure. So we're the demonstrate value. And then once that was in play, then we could kind of step back up into the value. And I think like if I was going, you know, I had my druthers and went back in time and was able to do that.

01;20;10;20 - 01;20;36;17
Mick Feild
I think that's how I would kind of approach it. But I think we just, you know, it is a different discipline to what is recruiting stuff contingent. And so I think we just kind of misstepped a little bit on bundling it all up together and thinking that it'll be okay. We're really confident of what we do here and we appreciate that and everyone understands that.

01;20;36;19 - 01;20;53;25
Mick Feild
So we can just bolt this on and everyone will just assume that it's all going to be the same. And I think the uptake, you know, the or the lack of uptake proves that just because we're really good at one thing doesn't necessarily really good at something adjacent to it. And I don't you know, it's slowly getting traction.

01;20;53;28 - 01;21;05;20
Mick Feild
There's still huge opportunity, but it is gaining traction. People understanding that. But it was, you know, just because it's adjacent, it doesn't mean necessarily we're really good at it.

01;21;05;22 - 01;21;28;25
Jonny Dunning
I think that's really, really interesting. And well, my point there, because you're absolutely right, you need that level of expertise, but also the all the client organizations need to be able to see a differentiation in the service and the expertise within an organization because it is different and you might well be dealing with completely different stakeholders within the business who maybe have never interacted with the MSP before.

01;21;28;27 - 01;21;50;04
Jonny Dunning
And the MSP, if it's recruitment, people talking to procurement people, that's not going to necessarily work. So the way that this has evolved, the hard work in the way that MSPs have turned their proposition on and increased the quality and the focus and things like that exactly As you say, if you had a magic wand, you could go back in time and do all those things straight away, then probably make a difference.

01;21;50;04 - 01;22;22;13
Jonny Dunning
But when you mentioned about the way analysts talk about the market and things like that, it reminds me of the conversation that used to be around the coming together of procurement and h.r and, you know, that's an assumption that MSPs, it's all just going to come together under one roof. That's a tricky one for me because I just look at it and you go, How an organization hires their perm team, for example, even to set to a lesser extent, but to a certain extent contractors as well versus how they interact on a B2B basis is very different.

01;22;22;15 - 01;22;50;07
Mick Feild
Than different things. They are aligned adjacent, but they're very, very different. And I just think we want, you know, aware enough collectively about how it was, whether it was suppliers, clients, MSPs. We just weren't aware of that nuance and how big that gap really was is closing. And, you know, it's that opportunity is still there, but it is closing and we're starting to operate in a better space.

01;22;50;07 - 01;23;08;26
Mick Feild
And but I really do think, you know, we're going to do a really good job in the next couple of years on this and really pose it firmly believe it, because I think a lot of the hard work has been done. You know, we've got our bruises. We're all got our lumps from going through this process. And I think everyone's luck and.

01;23;08;26 - 01;23;36;06
Mick Feild
So I think also the clients are starting to realize that, you know, that they need help in this space. They they really do. And by MSPs and being able to clearly articulate what they are actually doing, then there's a lot of gray area about, trust us, we can be great. But there's a lot of that kind of Gray is now being kind of swept out of the out of the discussion.

01;23;36;06 - 01;23;56;02
Mick Feild
And so we're being very precise on what we can do and how we can deliver that value. And then we have the data to back up the numbers about if you do this, it's this person doing this, it's that person. So people can kind of like really start to plan ahead very confidently knowing that, you know, what they're gaining is what is actually being told to them.

01;23;56;04 - 01;24;22;06
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, yeah. So the propositions have evolved, you know, as the technology has evolved as well to support the advancement of those propositions. So and with things like, you know, AI coming into the market as well, it's it's it's changing things even more. So I think all of these things are coming together to make these offerings much more accessible for our customers and to make offering customers the idea of getting on top of this problem much more of a realistic Well, do you know what?

01;24;22;06 - 01;24;40;25
Jonny Dunning
We could do this? And if we do, here's the potential value what's going to drive. So yeah, I think it's going to be an exciting time over the next couple of years. I'm very not. That's a great point to great point. To wrap it up. I really appreciate you taking the time to have a chat. Yeah, it's going to be it's going to be interesting time.

01;24;40;28 - 01;24;45;02
Mick Feild
It's going to be a fun time. Come on. Interesting and fun.

01;24;45;04 - 01;24;50;29
Jonny Dunning
Excellent. A little bit. Like hopefully the rest of the actually series is going to be, what do we say? A little bit spicy.

01;24;51;01 - 01;24;55;16
Mick Feild
I want it a little spicier. Yeah, I think you're going to be good. I enjoy a good contest.

01;24;55;18 - 01;25;03;01
Jonny Dunning
Superb. Excellent. When I said Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And yeah, look forward to speaking to you again soon.

01;25;03;03 - 01;25;04;13
Mick Feild
All right. Again, thank you.