Optimising for business outcomes across all workforce channels

The importance of bringing people & procurement views together. How do you merge workforce and services procurement decisions in the most effective way?

Episode highlights

The cyclical process of aligning workforce to business strategy
Observations and considerations of legislative changes like IR35
Pragmatic resourcing decisions
Procurement and people in optimal workforce mix
Bringing together the views of recruitment, procurement and HR

Posted by: ZivioReading time: 84 minutes

With Georgina Jones, Workforce Optimisation Lead, The Co-op

00:00:00 - Supporting the organisation to get work done in a better way
00:03:20 - The continual evolution of the workforce mix
00:13:00 - The cyclical process of aligning workforce to business strategy
00:23:10 - Observations and considerations of legislative changes like IR35
00:35:00 - Pragmatic resourcing decisions
00:41:00 - Procurement and people in optimal workforce mix
00:50:00 - Bringing together the views of recruitment, procurement and HR
00:58:10 - Demonstrating and quantifying the real value of workforce optimisation


Jonny Dunning:   
0:00       So, welcome to the podcast, Georgina Jones, you are in-charge of Workforce Optimization at the Co-op group. And I’ve got some really interesting topics I’m looking forward to discussing with you today. So first of all, thanks very much for joining me. It’s good to be take the time, and we hopefully we can get into a bit of a lively discussion.

Georgina Jones:   0:19       Yeah, definitely. Thank you for having me. I love your podcasts, they keep me company on my regular daily walks. So thank you for having me really looking forward to getting into the discussion.

Jonny Dunning:   0:29       My pleasure, thank you very much. So before we dive into it, we’re gonna be looking at areas around optimizing for business outcomes, when you’re looking at across all workforce channels. And workforce optimization, I think is an incredibly interesting area. And it’s very pertinent at the moment. What was it that kind of got you into that area? And where does your interest come from along those lines? 

Georgina Jones:   0:52       Sure. So it has taken me a while to explain to people what does workforce optimization actually mean? And it’s a term that I’m explaining quite often in our business at the moment, but many organizations have business process optimization teams, where their accountabilities to go in and look at the processes, look at the ways of working and optimize it. And actually, that’s exactly what me and my team spend the majority of our time doing at the Co-op, we look at the work that needs to be delivered as part of the business strategy, and then effectively support the organization to think about different routes to bring in that talent, be that maximizing the great potential of our current colleagues or equally going out to market to buy it. So that’s what we mean, or I mean, when I talk about workforce optimization. How did I get into it? I started in recruitment, most people fall into recruitment, Johnny, I don’t know about you. But that’s how I started, I’ve sort of evolved from being in recruitment agency to client-side recruitment into HR, I had a short stint in procurement that was fascinating. So perhaps touch on that in a second. And part of my role really is around strategic workforce management for the Co-op, but I’m personally passionate about contingent labor, maybe a bit of a contingent labor geek, I have a couple of side hustles myself. So I think it’s really, really important for organizations to be open about the fact that talent that they’re engaging with, are likely to have other interests, and we should really do our very best to support them in that. So yeah, it sorts of is helpful that I’m passionate about it, as well as doing it for my job, I suppose. 

Jonny Dunning:   2:26       Absolutely. I think that if I was going to give my kids some advice, not that they’d listened to me on what to do in the future? I would 100% would be follow what you’re interested in. Because if you’re passionate about something and you’re interested in it, you can just add so much more value, you’re gonna do the extra work, you’re going to find out more about it, you’re going to go into it with a wholehearted approach, aren’t you?

Georgina Jones:   2:48       Yeah, for sure. Exactly. I know, I think my husband and kids are literally sick of me talking about IR35 of an evening. So I wonder whether I need to get out more actually. But there you go. It’s something I am really passionate about. So, other organizations might call what I do for the Co-op, strategic workforce management, but we want to refer to it as really optimizing the entirety of our workforce. And when I talk about entirety, we’re talking about all different types of labor. And I know that’s one of the areas that you want to talk to me about today.

Jonny Dunning:   3:20       Yeah, absolutely. Because the definition of workforce is a fairly open definition. But I tend to look at it quite holistically, it’s the company, an organization is getting work done, doesn’t matter what that work is, and the various different ways of doing that. But I would regard all of those channels, workforce delivery channels, as I call them, as being part of this workforce mix. What’s your view on how that workforce mix has changed, or what it consists of now, compared to maybe when you first got into the industry?

Georgina Jones:   3:59       Yeah, I mean, I won’t give away my age, Johnny, because things have definitely changed since I started in the industry. But no longer are we just operating with permanent colleagues on payroll and no temporary workers on a paye basis, things have changed, globally. And I certainly think things have moved exponentially given, IR35. So one of your podcasts a couple of weeks ago was around how things have potentially changed from traditional TNM? Maybe in some more Statement of Work services, procurement arrangements because of the impetus around the legislation. So I certainly think that that has heightened the change of the workforce mix. And then more notably, and more relevantly, COVID, has completely changed people’s perspectives on the type of work they do, the volume of work they do, how they do that work? So sorts of laterally they’re the changes that we’ve absolutely seen, impact that kind of workforce mix, but it’s been evolving probably over the last sort of 10 years or so. But it’s certainly something that I believe C-suite exec board members are now becoming much more aware of, probably more so than previously, traditional HR and procurement practices have had to move and evolve in line with the workforce requirements and the workforce needs. Talent is a scarce and we need to make sure that we’re creating the conditions for all different types of talent to be able to deliver work successfully. 

Jonny Dunning:   5:27       Because people just want to do it in different ways. And like you mentioned about having your own side hustles. And people just work differently now. I mean, COVID made a massive difference. I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday, and they’re in the process of leaving a fairly senior job. And they’re going out there, and this should be high demand for what they’re doing. But they were kind of saying, “Well, in my current role, they’re so flexible, but the whole office has been changed. He’s got boobs, and this and that, and the other and places for calls and just super flexible. So you can basically work from home, work in the office.” And they were saying, “Well, is it all gonna go back to how it was before COVID?” I personally can’t see it. I just think there’ll be some sort of in between. But it was interesting looking at that, and somebody in that situation where they’re moving roles thinking, “Well, that opens up loads of possibilities for me, because it doesn’t really matter. If it’s a long way away from where I live, I’m not necessarily going to have to commute.” So there’s different things that have happened in the world. But also, I think there are different things that have happened in the way that people want to work, and the way that they want to be rewarded.

Georgina Jones:   6:33       Yeah, absolutely, people are changing the things that they value, we’re all considering the things that we want to spend more time doing, or equally less time doing. I completely agree with you, I can’t see a world where we will ever go back to working five days a week in an office environment, I definitely think there’ll be a happy medium to strike. But we are finding slightly more open now to engaging individuals across the globe than we ever have done before. I mean, it’s a complex process to do that in terms of tax legislation, etc. But in order for us to get the work done in the most effective way, there are different talent pools that we’ve now been able to open ourselves up to, which I think is a massive benefit. And I actually think that the workforce mix is going to continue to change in the future, this isn’t just something that we’re going to see happen now and it will stable out, I think this will be something that we need to continue to evolve and work with.

Jonny Dunning:   7:25       Yeah, because in theory, in an ideal world, the evolution of this, the workforce, will make things better for organizations, and better for individuals. You and I are lucky enough to work in areas that we’re very passionate about. And that’s a huge advantage. And so for people who have particular skills, the idea of working in a permanent job, if I can find the right permanent job, that might be the ideal scenario, they find a company that’s really well aligned with their own personal values. And it allows them to express their skills and achieve kind of satisfaction of getting things done and achieving objectives. That’s great. But in another scenario, it might be that because they’ve got certain set of skills, they need to pursue a freelance route to just focus on the areas that they’re actually interested in, particularly if they’re in demand. I feel like that’s more of a new phenomenon. And as far as making it better for organizations, it’s just changing so much, isn’t it? What organizations need, and what shape they are, and the importance of their brand, versus the importance of where their office is, and all these different things, are changing? So it feels like there’s quite a strong social dynamic to it as well.

Georgina Jones:   8:37       Yeah, huge social dynamic. And I think, Johnny, that’s really, really important. Hiring based on, the culture, alignment of colleagues is super important, and something that I’m really passionate about. So recently, at the Co-op, we launched a set of psychometrics that are designed to assess individuals against the culture that we think we want in the future, but equally that give them the opportunity to opt in and opt out of our culture, because it might not necessarily work for everybody, but we want to be super transparent about what it’s like to work at the Co-op. So there’s certainly a social play in there for definite. And we do need to make sure that we are continuing to keep up with people’s desires to rescale. So one of the things that we’ve all started to hear much more about is not necessarily just wanting to do something different, but actually learn something different. So those of us that have been in certain roles or industry sectors for a long period of time recognize the need to rescale probably more so now than ever. We had pilots for example, working in our stores over COVID and actually a number of them really enjoyed it. Now they are, I am sure, getting back to sunnier climes. But the need for us to be able to be agile and rescale both personally and from an organizational perspective is really, really key. And for me, one of the other things that I’ve seen from the worker shift is people’s keenness to just learn other things, and what we see is individuals, side hustles not necessarily even being vaguely aligned to what it is that they’re doing as part of their day job, they are focusing on gaining other experiences and other expertise, which actually just increases the diversity that you have within your workforce, which is another great thing.

Jonny Dunning:   10:17     Yeah, it’s balance, isn’t it? So allowing people to have these different options, I love the story of pilots coming in and work because the pandemic force this situation upon organizations and individuals alike, but it’s allowed certain things to happen that maybe wouldn’t have had the opportunity to happen before. And I think there’s some positive things that can be taken from situations like that, where people have found a way they’ve needed to earn money, and there’s been an opportunity and the emphasis has shifted from one service area to another service area. But I also think that, from a hiring point of view, and building a culture, if you’re working with good people, for me, that’s such a massively important part of that whole engagement process. There’s attitude, there’s aptitude, there’s also the skills, there’s all sorts of things to consider. But I think if you’ve got good people, and you can have the flexibility to allow them to grow with the business, shift with the business, it’s better to keep good people. And it’s a creates that lovely working environment. Obviously, people, it’s not so much the thing of a job for life these days. But I think whereas a job for life 60 years ago was, you took a particular career path, you joined a company, and you stay there and you got on with it. Whereas I feel like now there isn’t that but there’s more alignment between an individual’s values and the company’s values, you feel more part of something maybe in a different way.

Georgina Jones:   11:41     Hugely. And especially, if you are part of a consumer business, like the Co-op, we don’t just want people to come and work with us and stay and prosper, we equally want them to shop with us and buy our services on a continuous basis. We want them to advocate for our brand. And there’ll be many organizations, hopefully, that are listening to this, that recognize what I’m saying? So that is really, really important. And the importance of ensuring that we continue to develop a really strong alumni. It’s always been something that has been, it there in the background, and our teams utilize and dip into, but actually, again, having people leave to go and either create new experiences or get new exposure, and then bring that expertise back into an organization is really critical. And I’d love to see an evolvement of, I suppose, more permanent based contracts that can allow people to move in and out of an organization at a given period of time, rather than individuals that have been permanent leaving and potentially returning as a contractor. That’s not a necessarily effective way of engaging anymore. But ensuring that we’re regularly keeping in contact with alumni to bring those new skills and it is an absolute focus for us. Indeed, and I’m sure many other organizations as well, to that very point, how do we ensure that people continue to stay with us prosper, learn, go away, learn something new, and bring it back into the organization?

Jonny Dunning:   13:01     Yeah, and it’s really interesting to see some of the factors that more traditionally you would see associated with permanent employees have become a big part of the contingent workforce cycle now. And I think the next evolution on from that is the engagement with suppliers. So where you’ve got a supply base that might be delivering under a statement of work, rather than individuals delivering time and materials, there is again, that cultural alignment, a value based alignment between suppliers and buyer organizations, and the ability to build those kind of longer term relationships, it seems to be broadening out because what a workforce is, has changed. And the work capacity of an organization is reliant on partners of various different types now, but I feel like there’s more unification around how that needs to operate. But seeing it’s spreading out to supply more now on the services procurement side, I think is almost like the latest iteration of that,

Georgina Jones:   13:55     for sure. And I think for me, that’s where the power of collaboration with procurement and the people team really comes into it. So because you’re right. From an HR perspective, we’ve been engaging with our workforce in a certain way, for a long time, we’ve been delivering value propositions to them in a certain way. And we’ve created a set of expectations and standards for our colleagues that actually we would want to do in the most legislatively and appropriate way with our second tier suppliers. So what we have started to do is certainly with my procurement team, we work on a really close knit basis. We meet each other monthly, we create kind of supplier strategies, anything that we’re sharing with our colleagues, we would share with our suppliers and vice versa, just to really make sure that our SAW suppliers and our MSP suppliers if that was relevant, are as integrated into the organization, as our contractors and our colleagues are because it’s about them. They are our shop window as much as anything else. And if they understand our organization, how we work the things that are important to us, the likelihood is the delivery will be better when they come through the door. No,

Jonny Dunning:   15:01     Yeah, exactly. And all of these different channels are an incredibly important and support network for the organization. And so you can’t look at them in isolation, but you need them there as a part of a wider picture. I think COVID just made that really apparent when you look at how supply chains have had to operate, and just how things have had to change rapidly? It’s like this crazy thing that’s shaking everything up. But it brought some really important things to the surface, which definitely, some of the things you just mentioned, there would fall under that. And just this idea of this overall workforce optimization, you can’t just rely on one thing, you need flexibility.

Georgina Jones:   15:41     Absolutely, things change all the time. There’s always unexpected attrition that you don’t imagine, there’s unexpected talent shortages. So you need to look at it as a whole, and ensuring that your workforce strategy is as integrated and closely aligned to your business strategy is critical, I would be foolish to sit here and say that at the cohort, we’ve nailed it, we haven’t, it’s definitely a journey that we’re on. But really understanding the things that matter, the work that needs to get done, how quickly it needs to get done, whether the scaling capability that we need is likely to be needed for the long term or whether it’s just a short term fix, how much money we’ve got to be able to deliver that? If we’re able to have those conversations up front as part of the strategic planning process, rather than being the function that process the orders at the end of it. Much better position to be able to influence business decision and our role in the role of procurement is to provide a set of facts and hypotheses around cost base and potential risk of engaging in a certain way. And it’s very much down to the business to make the most appropriate choice. But that’s the role that I see us playing when we start to optimize this workforce by sharing the different mechanisms that they have available to them, and the pros and cons or the lenses that they need to look through when they start to engage different work types.

Jonny Dunning:   17:02     I totally agree with you, I think it’s just a very grown up and pragmatic way to do business. And a Vice CEO, once said to me, “Johnny, all I want to know is what is the most effective use of my resources? As a business, I just need to know that, what am I got to lean on and where should we be driving our effort?” So I think that is a key question that the C-suite really need to understand. And ultimately, it has to tie in to strategy. So that was one of the things I was going to ask you actually but was just in terms of tying workforce optimization back to strategy. But it’s a cyclical thing, isn’t it? Because the strategy has to be clear in the first place. So you need to know what you need to get done. And that has to be effectively communicated which other businesses are having to get better at that. But I’d say a lot of business and maybe still lacking in that, in the sense that business stakeholders, managers in particular areas, are they really 100% clear on what is required from them for their particular business unit and how that contributes to overall business strategy? It is not an easy thing to do. But it’s a very important one.

Georgina Jones:   18:13     Yeah, it’s really not easy. And I’d love to speak to anybody that thinks they’ve got it sorted, because we definitely haven’t. But I think as long as you’re open and upfront and transparent about the fact that we’ve got an idea about where we want to get to and an idea about how we might deliver that particular business strategy, then that’s often enough. And if there’s not an element of certainty about, I don’t know, potentially creating a new skill set on a permanent basis, then actually, that’s where you could afford to utilize more of a flexible workforce to test and learn the approaches and the structures that you’re potentially looking to put in. It’s really hard. I have worked with businesses who are creating almost a set of prompts in there for their strategic teams to think about so rather than coming up with what the consumers need and what our customers need, it’s about what do our workers need from us? And what do we need from our workers to enable them to deliver that? So a simple set of questions that are far from perfect, that are answered through an Excel spreadsheet effectively, but at least it’s a prompt there around workforce considerations and workforce implications that we are finding helpful. But to your point, Johnny, it’s not static, it’s cyclical, and like anything, context is everything who knew we would have a global pandemic on our hands that we needed to deal with? So the business strategy that we have set was completely flipped on its head. So we need to be much more agile and open to different routes of engaging lots of different types of workers because it gives us that agility and ability to be able to change direction at any given point in time.

Jonny Dunning:   19:51     Yeah, it’s probably a slightly cheesy metaphor, but I always compare business strategies to like sailing the Atlantic. There’s rowing the Atlantic, everyone’s putting in effort. But if you all know where you’re going, everyone’s input is extremely valuable. If you’re just getting in a boat and you’re rowing, then people could start feeling disillusioned, “What we’re doing this for? I’m doing more than person, or this isn’t the best thing for me?” If you know you’re rowing, the Atlantic, you’re going from point A to point B, that is the objective, and you’re all aligned on the objective. Everyone’s opinion matters, everyone’s input matters. And you can just get this cohesion, it’s still a very difficult thing to do. But at least everyone knows where they’re going. And if something crops up, and I say a whale gets in the way, if they change direction, not really the best example compared to a pandemic, but changes of direction, as long as they are communicated effectively as well, are still valid, it’s still valid. And when you’re looking at the workforce requirements, you could take the approach, some companies take the approach of looking at it from a worker based perspective, and other people take the approach of looking at it from a work based perspective. But ultimately, when you distill it down, what is the overall strategy of the business? And what needs to be done to achieve that? And then I think you can break that out and say, “Okay, well, these things can be done in different ways. We’ve got this capacity over here, we’ve got this capacity over here,” but you need to know what capacity you have in those different areas. And that does mean linking together all of the different kind of time based workforce channels, together with the procurement of services from external outsource providers as well.

Georgina Jones:   21:34     Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, the most successful organizations at doing this are the ones that use a huge amount of reliable data, for insight and for site purposes. So it’s really brilliant that we’re starting to have workforce discussions with our strategy team about, “Well okay, if that’s the business strategy, what is it that we’ll need people to do in order to help you deliver that?” But I believe that both, people and procurement, have a role to play to inform that business strategy to appoint as well. So actually, with all of the future world of work insights that are coming at us thick and fast, we need to start to inform business strategy rather than receiving it. Because we don’t want to set ourselves on a path that actually in five years’ time is going to be completely outdated, because no longer a university is going to be developing in that specific skill set as, for example, so I think it’s equally important to have some really solid and structured data sets about the workforce that you have, and where you’ve got potential gaps or areas of strength, but then how the external information could potentially impact the business strategy that we’re creating. We’re not there yet, from a Co-op perspective, we’re on a journey. But I think for me, it’s a two-way street, aligning your business strategy and your workforce strategy, we have to look both internally and externally in order for it to be successful.

Jonny Dunning:   22:55     Yeah, 100% Agree. So we’re getting some really interesting topics here. Just to take it back a little bit to maybe a topic that on the surface might not seem so interesting. You mentioned entertaining your family with discussions around IR35 at the dinner table. 

Georgina Jones:   23:13     Yeah. 

Jonny Dunning:   23:14     I wonder if I could try that and see if it would make my daughters kind of just sit there and eat instead of jabbering, well, maybe, I don’t think it would, they would just get me to shut up. So going back to IR35. It’s in place organizations have had that initial adaptation period, to try and get used to it and try and bring themselves up to compliance. But it’s important that companies keep an eye on it and keep it in mind. How can they do that? What’s the importance of that and how do you think companies can do that?

Georgina Jones:   23:45     Yeah, so I think it’s for each company to design the most appropriate approach for them. So I don’t believe one size fits all in terms of adapting to new legislations, of course, the legislation, is very clear. But depending on your organization, and how risk averse you are, will depend on your approach to adopting it. For us, we were extremely keen to make sure that the implementation of IR35 didn’t cut off certain talent channels. We know that contingent labor is a vital part of our operating model. So we were keen to make sure that we continue to engage where we possibly could. One of the approaches that we took that was perhaps slightly risky at the time was that we engage directly with the contingent Labor’s the limited company contractors about my office five. And we were aware that this was frightening. A couple of them, some of them had been operating as limited companies for a long period of time, they were unsure about what the implications would be for them. So we didn’t want to teach them to sock eggs, but we invited all of our contingent workers to a session, you know the days we’re used to host really big meetings in an office? We hosted a session for all of our contingent workers. And we talked to them about how we planned to implement IR35. And that we would be taking a reasonable care on a case by case basis approach so we wouldn’t be implementing any one approaches for roles that we would be looking at things on an individual basis? And we reiterated the importance of us taking that approach. And we weren’t sure how that would land, we weren’t sure whether we would get any sticky questions from our contractors about whether we’d be looking to increase their pay or change their way of working. And I’m pleased to say, it was actually quite well received from our contingent workers. So we offered them as much support as we possibly could we pointed them in the directions of different accountancy advisory services, if they needed them, but we just were open and honest about the approach that we were taking? How long it would take? When they might receive their SDS? What to think about if the SDS came back, and they haven’t necessarily expected the output. So we engaged with them regularly. And we still do so it’s our contractor community of interest forum. We don’t talk to them quite as often as we used to, but it two-way engagement by way of us being super transparent with our, with our contracts about our approach. And clients, we all have reasonable, we all have to take reasonable care to constantly review whether the SDS is that we have in place are accurate. So it would be foolish to think that we can get away with doing it once or even twice a year, we need to do it on a really regular basis. And each time there’s a new engagement or a new extension, that process is needed. So we’ve retained the, I suppose the communication channels, if you will, that we set up when we were initially implementing IR35, across the Co-op. So rather than us meeting once a month with our executive team, we maybe only meet them twice yearly. But we will talk to them about changes in the market, any big cases that have been going through court and what we’ve learned from them? We regularly engage with our partner’s books and legal who have supported us through the IR35 process. And they give us huge amounts of information and things that we should be thinking about. And we’re also holding just next week, actually some seminars and upskill sessions for our procurement teams. We did it initially, but we’re doing it again, just to make sure that IR35 and different mechanisms of contracting are considered when procurement or getting involved in designing contracts. And like any legislation, some of it’s a little bit vague. And we need to do our very best to interpret that in the most effective way and utilizing our partners to do that. So I think it’s hugely important to make sure that people are aware that this is an ongoing obligation that clients have. But I equally think it’s important that contractors are aware that it’s their ongoing obligation to operate in line with the SDS that they have been given, and that they shouldn’t equally slip back into habits that they’ve maybe had before. Because, as you rightly know, and many of your other podcasters have talked about, everything has to happen in practice as well as in the contract. So informing the contractors have that as equally been important. So it’s certainly not going anywhere. And we need to keep it at forefront of mind.

Jonny Dunning:   28:17     Yeah, absolutely. And it does have a real bearing over, for example, services procurement, where procurement teams need to understand that if they’re procuring consultancy, that needs to be proper statement work driven consultancy, rather than it somehow slipping into disguise time and material. And I think that’s a whole other area where businesses are starting to delve into that and say, “Okay, what have we got in our service documents and tailspin, for example,” and where it’s maybe a little bit, it’s not quite as tightly controlled as, for example, because in your workforce, which is generally more of a solved problem. I love what you were saying about the approach you took with your contractors during the IR35. journey. I remember being at an IR35 event. This was first time around before it got delayed, connect to deadline. And I was chatting to people from some companies that happened to be there. And I remember I was talking to somebody from one company, and they were saying, “We think that most of our contractors are all fully aware of what’s happening with IR35,” they’ve already thought about it and worked out and the person next to them, said, “But we actually surveyed our contractors and, like 5% of them, were really kind of even properly aware of exactly what was gonna happen and exactly what it would mean for them?” Because like I said, it is complicated. And also its maybe one of those things that gets pushed to the background sometimes by people. And a third company said, “Well, we’re not really going to engage with people because we’re just going to wait till the last minute because otherwise it might show up loads of problems.” And I thought, “This is all over the place,” and when we talk about workforce, whether it’s a supplier organization delivering on an output basis, or a contractor working on a time materials basis, or an employee, it’s just clear communication and really kind of working together in partnership is absolutely essential. And so I think the approach that you guys took there was a very valid one. And people can buy into the process, and people will work with it, like you say, rather than blanket decisions, or rather than people feeling put out, and you take the risk of bringing up problems earlier on, but at least you put people’s expectations in the right place.

Georgina Jones:   30:29     Yeah. And to your point, we had some contractors who were really clued up about it. And they taught us some things that we didn’t know, because this legislation was new for end clients. So of course, it wasn’t new for contractors. But those of them that had been contracting for a long period of time, were teaching us and equally teaching other contractors who’ve maybe just gone out on their own, for the first time, they’ve been three months in and all of a sudden, this legislation was going to adjust and change for them. So it was something that we believed was the right thing to do. And, as I said, it paid off, we didn’t lose any contractors, actually, as a result of the IR35 status determination. And I’m lucky that I’ve got a great lady in my team that is equally, if not more so passionate about IR35 than me, and we have a great working relationship with our tax team as well. So it is on the radar of the people, but it needs to be on the radar of procurement, absolutely are aware of IR35 legal or we have regular conversations with them and tax. So it’s just something that you’ve like any legislation, probably the hype around IR35, you would hope will start to die down. We went through this with the agency worker regulations as well didn’t we a couple of years ago. So it will become the norm. But it’s important that it stays on everybody’s risk register and the appropriate mechanisms for engagement are used. But I take your point, it isn’t always easy to define who the end client is, in service procurement relationships? And again, that’s where I believe really passionately about the relationship between procurement and people because your kind of have to work that through as a collective group. In my mind, work workforce, you’re buying capability and/or capacity, that is it. How you buy, it doesn’t really matter, but your buying capacity and/or capability. And then as you start to consider the work that needs to get done, then it helps guide the IR35 process, in the end, hire a process, but I think, as we does probably have some way to go to mature. But organizations really do need to focus on having the ability or having greater ability to predict milestones, deliverables. I think, to your point, when business leaders are setting strategy, they might be really clear about what that looks like? But your two or three tires below might not be but they’re your engagement managers, they’re your hiring managers. So actually to say, “Right, you need to engage on NSFW and have a very clear set of outcomes, a very clear set of deliverables,” is something that not in every instance they’re used to. So it’s been interesting talking to those individuals to say, “It doesn’t really feel like that is a very clear deliverable. It doesn’t feel like the supplier is taking any element of risk there. What do you think?” And if the answer’s, “No, not sure,” then the route is often, “Well, let’s just go down a TNM route.” But we can equally find it work the other way around, if we’ve got a very clear set of deliverables, and it tends to be easier in the change transformation, and IT sectors than, than anywhere else. But we’re equally seeing, it be pretty prevalent in the marketing space as well, where we’re getting people to do a certain piece of copy for us, for example. But there’s always, like I said, context that you need to consider working practices that you need to consider, and procurement people tax legal have to be hand in hand on these kinds of matters.

Jonny Dunning:   34:09     Yeah, and it’s absolutely strategic. So there’s obviously the regulatory risk based side of it and what you’re talking about is a really thorough, long term approach to it, which is, I think exact exactly the right way to deal with it. Because it’s just the rules have changed. So you have to work to the rules, and you have to work to them in an optimal manner for your organization to get give your organization the advantage and help your organization be successful as it can be. But I think there’ll be secondary factors that come out on the more strategic side. So obviously, companies need to get on top of the legislation, make sure that they’ve got the processes in place to do things properly, to be able to engage workers in a compliant manner, whether it’s inside or outside just have the processes in place to be able to do it. But I also think that some organizations may be more than others are going to find that because of the some of the fallout of IR35 now that we’re getting to this point in time, I think some project work is going to start falling behind. Some stuff that people thought was going to be done isn’t going to be done, because in particular organizations, they maybe lost a large number of contractors, or they’ve made blanket decisions, that is going to have effects that have lagged. And everyone’s been worried about the initial problem. But I think those sort of things are going to start coming out more now. And they’re just going to think, “How are we going to resource those?” And that’s where they need to have the access to other options, if that is the best channel to get that piece of work done. But also talent shortages, massive talent shortages, Brexit made that even harder. When it comes to getting work done, we have to be pragmatic. And that means being able to take advantage of all available options that you have, that you can bring to bear.

Georgina Jones:   36:00     Agree, I think you’ve got to be pragmatic, for sure, aware of the arrangement that you are entering yourselves into, both in terms of the commercial aspects of that, and the risk element as well. But I also think that the way that if you’re entering a really long term arrangement, then it’s more difficult to be agile and change direction. But actually, if you’re not 100% sure, I think it’s fine to arrange a short term piece of work or a short term engagement to effectively scope out what the problem might be we certainly in previous lives, we’ve had a tendency to say, “Well, we need to engage on this particular basis. And we’ll do it for 12 months or 18 months, because we think that’s how long we need.” Well, actually, we need three months initially, to be able to just set ourselves up for success and work out whether that is the right contracting mechanism. Or maybe it isn’t, perhaps we’ve got a team of skilled, permanent colleagues over here that could do the work, they just need a little bit of a leg up. That’s fine, too. So these engagements don’t necessarily need to be forever. And we need to be much more fluid about admitting when we’ve maybe entered into an engagement that isn’t as we expected it to be for whatever reason, and as needed.

Jonny Dunning:   37:20     Yeah. And I think just business in general is more iterative now. Obviously, in the tech space, the idea of working on progressive sprints, is very commonly used in agile methodology and you’ll sometimes see that in the way that statement work is structured in the sense that there’ll be an initial output or initial outcomes, which will lead to potentially further requirements, which may be with the same supply, maybe with a different supplier. But you don’t necessarily know that straightaway. Just going back to one thing, which is the point I found fascinating when you’re talking about capacity and capability or capability and capacity. I was having a conversation the other day, with a guy called Tom Evilly, he’s really interesting guy. And he was talking about, for example, shipping companies, rather than buying an engine from Rolls Royce, actually engaging with Rolls Royce on a power by the hour basis, whereby effectively Rolls Royce a monitoring or Rolls Royce’s wherever the engine manufacturer is, monitoring this giant engine in a tanker, distribution ship, and monitoring when it needs to be changed? When it needs to be serviced? And they’re effectively providing a service that takes that boat from point A to point B. And its kind of this, he referred to it as Servitization. So putting things into a service and putting things into deliverables or an outcome, because you could look at it and go, it’s difficult for companies to do this. And it’s more to think about for a buying manager to have they line up the actual deliverables that they need. But statement works actually been around for a long, long time. But it’s maybe been more and this is comes onto an interesting point that we want to get into in a bit around bringing people in procurement together, it’s more the world of procurement. But it’s straying more across both now because the workforce channels are all coming together, and they’re having to be managed in a more holistic way. And but for some hiring managers, for example, it’s hard to write your job spec. And so to write a real statement of work or scope of work requirement, for some people, it might actually be easier because writing a job spec a bit more people, and they might be more geared towards these are the key objectives that my department or my division have got. And this is a piece of work that needs to be done. But it’s an area that kind of, it’s not new, but it’s rapidly evolving the skill set, starting to sit in different places. But I think procurement can play a really active and effective role in helping with that because they might not be subject matter expert on the particular skill area, I always use cybersecurity because that contains lots of confusing skill areas. But they can help the buying manager ensure that they’re using the correct type of structure, “Okay, so you’re outlining these deliverables, can you measure that? How will you measure that? How will you know if the job has been done correctly?” I do think it’s something that people are starting to skill themselves up on and it might seem scary to organizations initially, but it’s an essential part of the mix. So people have got to get on top of it.

Georgina Jones:   40:29     Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I think procurement can definitely play a role in helping us be really mindful about to your point, the work that needs to get done, and what success would look like, what good would look like if it was done in a certain way? It does require a cultural shift. So leaders in organizations can find it difficult to think about the work rather than all the skill, they tend to think about the individual. So actually, you’re designing a role description, because you think Johnny would be brilliant in this role because it’s been identified as top talent. He’s had really good performance reviews, and actually Johnny is ready for his next step. But is that job Johnny’s natural skill set? Is it something that he could do with ease? Is it something that we could upskill him and train him to do? And actually, is it something that he would want to do? So there’s some of the things that we’re really starting to embed in our organization that we absolutely need to think about the individual’s aspirations, their skills, their transferable skills and their passions. But more importantly, and before that, we need to think about what the organization requirement is? What the skill set is that we need to create, be that technical or behavioral? And what good would look like in terms of the output of the work that we’re expecting to get done? And if we focus on that first, then the second piece becomes, “Okay, great. And what is the right way to source that? It might be this permanent colleague that you had your eye on anyway because yes, all of the criteria that we’ve just set out matches this individual perfectly,” or it might not be, it might point us into a different direction around sourcing things differently. And the procurement approach is definitely something that I think the people team can learn a lot from.

Jonny Dunning:   42:14     Yeah, so on that subject, and if we look at resilience across the workforce, so capability and capacity, you’ve got your permanent employees, that’s an ongoing journey of building the best possible team, and rescaling and upskilling and building the capability of that side of the workforce, then you’ve got your contracting suppliers and your ability as a brand to attract contractors to come and work for you. But then you’ve got your supply base. So then you’ve got your services, suppliers that can deliver stuff on an outcomes or output basis. So within that, there needs to be a joined up approach to align that use of capacity, which we’ll come on to in a minute. But I think that’s something that a lot of organizations, they don’t really have enough of an appreciation for that as part of this. It’s not in the same conversation, it doesn’t feel the same conversation a lot of the time. But there’s huge potential resilience in this services procurement supply chain alongside the TNM based or permanent employee based workforce channels. And there’s also potentially a lot of available diversity. And it’s not easy to get all those things lined up. But I think there are ways that organizations can look to maximize the different options that they’ve got. But services suppliers definitely need to be a part of that kind of extendable capacity, in my opinion. Do you agree?

Georgina Jones:   43:40     Yeah, I would, and we’re always trying to answer, what is the optimal workforce mix for a certain area, that’s what we need to crack. And contact center would be a really good example to use for this. I’m sure lots of contact centers are similar, but we have a permanent contact center cohort of colleagues, then we flex with temporary workers as required, but then we outsource a huge amount of our other element of contact center, offshore. And that’s the way that our kind of workforce is structured. And what that allows us to do is to be able to monitor those changes over time, is there anything from a nutritional perspective that we need to be aware of? Are we launching a new range of sandwiches so you wouldn’t believe the excitement when we launched our boxing day sandwich range that we need to make sure...?

Jonny Dunning:   44:30     What was it like? Like Christmas leftovers type?

Georgina Jones:   44:34     Literally absolutely sandwich happen, pigs in blankets stuffing, applesauce, you name it, but actually, those things when we’re launching anything different with our member proposition, we need to flex the workforce mix. We recently, well as a result of COVID, launched our 24-hour helpline so obviously families in need were able to contact us at any given time about anything while our permanent contracts weren’t necessarily able to flex quickly enough to be able to respond to that 24/7 requirement. But our service contracts were able to flex. So I think it’s about having those joined up regular conversations and gosh, we don’t always get it right. But actually procurement and people talking regularly about the business strategy, the current workforce mix, that is there, the cost of that current workforce mix, the output of that current workforce mix, and able to talk about whether we could adjust it or not, is really important. And we’re doing that relatively successfully in some of our contact center areas. But one of the things that you asked me is, where do you start with some of this, and actually, start with an area that you think you can make the biggest impact in, or has the biggest problem, has the biggest reliance on contingent labor, or temps, or maybe has a big attrition challenge. So if you can focus on one area first and foremost prove a case for thinking in a slightly different way, a much more strategic way, and then progress from there, because this kind of thing is huge, you need an awful lot of people’s having an awful lot of different conversations. So it’s important not to boil the ocean. And “Progress versus perfection,” is our mantra within our team. Because you’ve got to start somewhere. But definitely try and start small and influence leaders to really see this as something that’s valuable and have sourcing and resourcing discussions rather than “It’s a recruitment meeting, it’s a procurement meeting, it is an HR meeting,” those things need to come together collectively. So you’re looking at the whole picture.

Jonny Dunning:   46:36     And you think starting with a kind of, start small approach, and get some case examples. Do you think that helps with buying internally?

Georgina Jones:   46:45     So it helps, in my experience, yes, again, it depends on your organization. But I think you kind of have to prove a case, definitely, you’ve got to prove that something works. And conceptually, this is quite a hard thing to get your head around. So you need to be able to outline why you think it’s a really strong idea and show some benefit from doing that? So I would say, create a case for change for a small area that is either keen to test something new, or has a big problem and then go from there, definitely, creating a case for change is needed in every line of the work that we do, isn’t it? But certainly in this instance, I think it’s important. 

Jonny Dunning:   47:24     And what about strategic buy in from the C-suite in terms of, is it a question of them helping to drive that direction, from its inception, having the right sponsors in the C-suite? Or is it something where the business is doing clever things, and then taking it to the board level and saying, “We have these options, we should be pursuing this route”?

Georgina Jones:   47:43     Yeah, and sometimes it depends on the scale of what you’re trying to achieve. So if it was a particular huge piece of work, then it would be a board level discussion about the options that we have, actually, if it’s something around how we would rearrange our contact center, you might not necessarily need to take it to board, we’ve got senior leaders in our organization that have accountability to make appropriate choices, they manage their own budget, they manage their establishment, and therefore, they have the ability to flex that as they see fit. But the important thing, also to mention is that we’ve made a shift in recognizing the importance of procurement and people working more closely together. And with that in mind, our chief people officer is actually accountable for procurement. So we are thinking about people and services, capability and capacity and services, all in the same way, we all report to the same person, which is much more helpful. So our chief procurement officer, here’s the challenges that we’re facing from a colleague perspective and the opportunities, we have to do things differently. So that in itself has been a significant shift and recognizing the importance of bringing those things together.

Jonny Dunning:   48:59     Yeah, well, I think that represents an amazing opportunity to really take leaps forward, compared to organizations that don’t have that kind of level of accountability or don’t have that alignment and accountability. Because I think, one of the things that I’ve certainly lots of conversations, I’ve been asked many times and just discussed this conundrum about bringing the people in procurement functions together, where there’s responsibility lie? Who’s in charge of work capacity? It’s complicated. There’s a lot of moving parts. Sometimes there’s politics involved, depending on the organizational structure, that seems to be something that a lot of organizations find really, really difficult or haven’t even tried to address yet, because it’s just such a thorny issue. How do you think we most effectively merged those capacities, those functions?

Georgina Jones:   49:49     It is complicated, for sure. And I think for me, one of the reasons that it’s been historically complicated is because people in procurement are targeted in different ways, procurement are targeted on, you know, creating savings, people are targeted on making sure that we’ve got the most appropriate colleague base, that colleague base are engaged, the retention is right, the performance is there. So, historically we have been focused in different directions, but actually, we’re very clear that we have a people and procurement strategy that is fully aligned. And it talks very much to how we can optimize and get the most effective workforce mix across our organization, which is great. And having really good, regular conversations, it sounds super basic, doesn’t it? But just meeting on a regular basis, sharing insights, sharing things that you’ve seen work, sharing business problems, that in itself is probably leaps and bounds from where we were originally, people in procurement never used to talk. But actually, just doing that putting a structured rhythm and routine into how often you meet is helpful. Another thing that we’ve started to do is share our data. With procurement, it’s really difficult. We’ve got lots of different fragmented data sources, I’m sure other organizations that are listening to this are in the same boat. And we are comparing apples and pears often. But if we’re able to share the volume of resources that were buying, and the cost of those resources, we can start to come up with some really good solutions or start to hypothesize about different approaches. But being really clear about the data that you have access to, what you’re looking at, and what your basis of preparation is, is really important. And then just being open, transparent and creating that element of psychological safety. Because the reality is, in order to deliver our business strategy and optimize our workforce, people in procurement have to be working together, there’s no other choice, no longer a procurement there to create contracts for us, they are delivering valuable streams of work. And they’re really sweating our services contracts in the most appropriate way. They are the experts, but what we can do is help our business and be more informed about whether services, procurement kind of engagements are actually more effective in solving some of the business problems that they might be facing from a permanent colleague perspective.

Jonny Dunning:   52:17     Yeah, I like the way you’ve described this to me before as talking about bringing people and procurement views together. Because there are different skill sets. And there’s the need to be different skill sets, the very people based function I said, there’s a whole different requirement around nurturing and engaging with people versus supplier engagement on that side. Ultimately, it’s still people at the end of it, and it’s all about relationships. But there’s different skills involved. And I think the data point is what I’m going to come onto in a second, I made a note of that, and put a circle around it, because that’s a really, really important one. But when you look at what procurement are judged on, so savings, for example, when it comes to buying services, there’s a whole leap on from that, which is value, and return on investment. Because for a lot of organizations, certainly we see this as a technology provider, within a lot of organizations, there really isn’t much visibility on what they’re getting for their services procurement spend? If you can get that visibility and you can bring that process under control. And within sight, then you can start to understand this supplier, they’re going to do X, they did Y, they did a great job, or actually they overrode the cost or these guys are better and that again, comes back to what I was saying about the potential diversity within that services procurement supply chain, if you can actually see it, you will be able to build this beautifully diverse supply base that covers lots of different needs in lots of different ways. So I think when you look at outcomes and return on investment, that’s getting into again, capacity and capability of the business need certain work done, what’s the most effective way to do that? And if something changes, and we can’t get it done in this way, whether it’s a regulatory change, macro-economic change, whatever, then there’s different ways that you could do it, you’ve got those alternative options lined up. So I think that’s a fascinating area. But as you say, it’s about collaboration. It’s not a question of making the two different functions to do just one thing and it’s not a threat to either side. It’s just an effective collaboration. And it also always takes me back to a conversation I had with Bruce Morton from Allegis, quite a while ago where he was talking about this concept. He’s a real thinker, Bruce, he was talking about this concept of work design architects, future job title. And I think that we’re almost like straddling or engaging with both sides of that equation, as effectively. You could set say is that an evolution of strategic workforce planning workforce optimization, or is it just exactly what workforce optimization is? But the data, I just think that’s incredible, because the power of the data that procurement could have on what they’re buying for services is absolutely massive. And in terms of how that could educate and inform the business, its enormous rather than a CFO saying cut costs, they might be saying, “Spend more on consulting in that area,” because it’s driving bottom line growth or overall business revenue. And when you tie that, together with work capacity, or employee and time and materials capacity data, you can just do some amazing things. You’ve got to collect the data. But if you’ve got that data, then what a workforce optimization function, bringing together people and procurement can deliver to the C-suite is absolutely worth its weight in gold.

Georgina Jones:   55:53     Yeah, for sure. And just going back to the point you made around people and procurement, I think you’re right. It’s about simple collaboration, but it’s about appreciation, and listening, and I’m a council member of SIA, and I’ve been part of the council for about three and a half, four years now. And I’ve seen an increasing shift from lots of the people sat around the table that are procurement category experts to many more people, folks sat around the table too. So those discussed the dynamic of those discussions has absolutely changed. And to your point, whether we’re wanting, whether we’ve got a team of colleagues, or whether we’ve got a team of individuals delivering a service for us, we want to know that we’re reaching the most appropriate outcome, we want to know that we’re investing our money and our energies in the right place. So focusing on return on investment is critical. And that’s harder to do when you have limited visibility of data. And it’s a constant worry for both procurement and people because we know we’ve got an expensive stream of activity happening there. And it’s probably creating way more value than we give it justice for. But we can’t see that tangible value being created at the moment. And that’s our biggest challenge and hurdle for this year, I’d say.

Jonny Dunning:   57:16     Yeah, and I think that the same challenge, and hurdle exists for almost all organizations at the moment, particularly with the amount of change they’ve had to go through. There’s some pretty big things we’re looking at here, some pretty big changes, and transitions and a big evolution of the way an organization can look at their work capabilities. So it’s not easy to get started. And there are clearly some hurdles, time hurdles, costs, hurdles, prioritization, organizational hurdles? What’s your opinion on why it’s worth the effort? And ultimately, what the business kind of gets out of it in the long run?

Georgina Jones:   57:57     Yeah. So the Co-op is a member owned organization. So every bit of money we spend be on our payroll or be on our services providers, or whatever it is, we’re spending our member’s money effectively. So we need to make sure that we’re spending it in the right way. We also have some really big transformational business changes that we’re making in response to the way the retail sector is running, for example, and the way consumers want to shop. And therefore, we need to be more transformative about the skill sets that we have within our organization. And whether they’re within our organization, or working in service of our organization, is something that we need to think really clearly about. To your point, what are the benefits? We need to quantify those benefits, and you need to quantify it and probably a small area, so a big organization like the Co-op with lots of fragmented data, if you can focus in on one particular cost code or one particular function, where you can outline what the current landscape looks like, and what the to-be landscape could look like, if you changed a couple of the factors, add in more temps reduce, take out more temps add in a few more heads? Then you start to influence a different kind of discussion. But it will very much depend on what the business is looking to achieve. If the business is looking to increase retention and develop career opportunities for people, then your play is slightly different than if that team is looking to reduce spend and overall capacity in that area. So I’ve not really answered your question necessarily, but...

Jonny Dunning:   59:32     Well, I think you have and also I think the general thrust of this discussion has all been around the benefits of it in reality, whether it’s the data, whether it’s the cohesion between people and procurement functions, but it comes back really to what you said before about capability and capacity, doesn’t it?

Georgina Jones:   59:57     Yeah, and we have to be current about how the workforce is moving? And no longer can we just be focused on a couple of different workforce streams, we have to be much more open so in response to the way that people want to live and work and the way our engagement managers want to engage with different services and I’d love a world where we can get to a point of saying, “Actually, we need to be spending more on third party labor, because we can absolutely see the benefit,” that is harder. That’s definitely harder at a macro level, but not as difficult when you’re looking at functional levels or team levels, perhaps. So for me, why wouldn’t you? It’s almost an organizational imperative for us to ensure that we’ve got the most effective and optimal workforce mix in our business and that we, as people are procurement experts, are delivering the fundamental basics that those two areas lead, we need to create an environment of psychological safety of growth of skills for our internal colleagues, we need to create a sense of clarity for our supplier arrangements. So I think it’s really important to make sure that we’re clear what services we’re wanting to buy and engage and what they need from us in order for it to be successful.

Jonny Dunning:   1:01:16  Yeah, and you would naturally assume that organizations that are unwilling to address these hurdles and to address this problem are going to fall behind. Because it’s hard enough getting work done anyway, like I said, with the talent shortages that exist at the moment, the market conditions and variability that organizations are having to deal with, if they’re not on top of this, they need to be getting on top of it. It must be pretty, obviously challenging, but it must be stimulating and fun and engaging in some ways, and quite exciting. A bit of a geek in this area. Though, whether you call sales bit of geek in this area, too, but I know you’re obviously interested in it. But for people within the teams that are having this transformation, although sometimes change can be uncomfortable. It’s moving forward, it’s achieving something, it’s adapting. I personally find that, that’s for me, that’s quite enriching.

Georgina Jones:   1:02:09  Yeah, and change is inevitable. So you either have to embrace it or not. And luckily, the Co Op are absolutely embracing change in every aspect of the way we’re delivering our business, not just the way we’re optimizing our workforce and our services suppliers. But it is exciting, we have great opportunity to improve. We’ve got a fantastic resourcing function led by one of my colleagues, Yvonne Foster, she’s absolutely brilliant, her team do a fantastic job. We’ve also got a great procurement team that are buying Procurement Services, we’ve got a really good MSP that is supporting us. But actually bringing all of those things together, looking at the data strategically, holistically, is something that we’re really trying to get into a regular rhythm and routine of doing and sometimes it might just be interesting to share it and to observe what we’re seeing. But other times there is a really notable need to take a course of action. And actually, when we recognize that collectively, that’s when a really powerful conversation happens with the business leader that says, “We’ve all collaborated, we’ve come together and here are some of the problems that we’ve noticed. How can we lean into this together collectively?” So yeah, it is exciting. Definitely!

Jonny Dunning:   1:03:23  So listen, I know, you and I’ve got lots of other areas that we’d probably like to discuss as well. Maybe that’ll be around too, that we can delve into some deeper discussion in some other areas. And also look at how this evolution is progressing for you guys, and also within the market. I really appreciate you coming in and having this conversation. I think your approach is very refreshing. In the sense that, what the market needs right now is to be engaging in dialogue and discussion around these sorts of areas where there are these problems, so that people can start to develop best practice, share ideas, and have a bit more of that philosophy you described earlier. But like an open discussion, I think it’s really important because I think a lot of people just don’t know where to start. It all just seems too much. It’s seems like a complete nightmare. How’s their business ever going to adapt to this, as a business we’re going to want to, so I think hearing you talk really openly about it, is extremely useful. It’s very good of you to take the time and I certainly find it very, very interesting.

Georgina Jones:   1:04:24  Thank you for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’m not this optimistic every day, but most days, it’s a challenge. But I honestly think and COVID again, has been another kind of elevator for this. It’s just really simple human behavior of collaborating, appreciating individual views, looking outside to get more insight and learning some interesting things that might enable your business to be much more effective. And then joining the dots. Joining the dots can be really, really hard in big complex organizations. But If you are networked enough to be able to join those dots by virtue, a really powerful outcome can happen.

Jonny Dunning:   1:05:06  Yeah. And I think as you alluded to, it’s a journey. I don’t think there’s anybody who’s got all the answers and got it 100% pegged. There’s lots of, bright organizations and big powerful organizations and small, dynamic organizations that we’re addressing these issues. And some of them are doing a really good job of it. But it’s still most cases relatively early in the maturity curve, because it’s quite sophisticated. And it’s moving with times that have only been forcing these sort of changes much more recently. So yeah, again, I think, this sort of conversation, I certainly find it very useful. hopefully other people will be finding it useful as well. And I really appreciate you taking the time. 

Georgina Jones:   1:05:47  No worries. Thanks, Jonny. 

Jonny Dunning:   1:05:48  Excellent. Well, thanks very much joining me and I’ll hopefully catch up with you again soon.

Georgina Jones:   1:05:52  Cheers. Thank you. 

Jonny Dunning:   1:05:53  Bye.

Georgina Jones:   1:05:54  Bye now.


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