Unmasking Staff Augmentation disguised as Statement of Work
What started as a meme became a great conversation about choosing the right contracting mechanism when getting work done.
With Mickey Pelletier – Co Founder of Emberpath and Founder of CWM Strategies
00;02;12;22 - The meme about Staff Aug masquerading as SOW
00;08;53;04 - Are most organisations aware of the problem?
00;14;04;23 - The enlightened ones making a change
00;21;02;13 - To track workers or not in SOW
00;28;33;14 - Ease versus rigour in getting work done
00;34;42;14 - Risk as one of the key drivers of SOW
00;45;37;04 - The responsibility for SOW
00;53;35;04 - The benefits and making a start with your SOW program
Episode Highlights
Transcript
Auto-generated. Please excuse any minor errors.
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;46;15
Jonny Dunning
Right? So, Mickey, today we are here to discuss one of your famous memes and the impacts of what your meme describes on the Contingent Workforce market, the procurement market, the whole kind of services procurement gambit. So a lot of people out there in the procurement and contingent workforce world will already know you. As the co-founder of Emberpath and also the founder of CWM Strategies and the owner of the finest, kind of extended workforce, contingent workforce procurement set of memes available on LinkedIn or the internet as a whole, I would imagine.
00;00;46;18 - 00;00;54;27
Jonny Dunning
Can you just for those that don't know you, can you do a quick intro and a reminder for those that already do know you of, who you are and what you're up to.
00;00;54;29 - 00;01;19;13
Mickey Pelletier
Right. I call myself the CW Meme King, self-titled, although some have called me that as well. But anyway, yeah, I, Mickey Pelletier, I create content, around the contingent workforce world, workforce management, the world that a lot of us live in, sort of making light and poking at some of the things that are going on in our industry.
00;01;19;15 - 00;01;37;20
Mickey Pelletier
I also run a consulting practice, CWM Strategies, that focuses on helping, clients, figuring out what do they want to be when they grow, what do they want their contingent workforce to be when they grow up? And then strategizing how to grow, mature, and figure out that program and the slew of services that come with that.
00;01;37;21 - 00;02;03;17
Mickey Pelletier
I also support providers, that are, helping clients with their contingent workforce solutions. So, also the co-founder of Emberpath, that's an up and coming technology looking at the entire human capital spectrum and workforce selection, decisioning, of course, powered by AI. But everything is these days. And that's, that's a work in progress. But really excited.
00;02;03;17 - 00;02;12;20
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah. To speak with you today. On, on on the topic we got all stemming from a meme and a post that was that was on LinkedIn.
00;02;12;22 - 00;02;39;13
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. Well, you're very good at getting the conversation going. On LinkedIn and getting some debate happening using a bit of a lighthearted touch to pull people into the conversation, which is brilliant. On a on, I really appreciate you doing that. The particular meme in question was basically looking at the hidden risks, hidden costs, and basically kind of like hidden contracting that so often exists within services procurement.
00;02;39;16 - 00;03;00;16
Jonny Dunning
Or was the statement of work kind of spend within organizations? And that's what I want to talk about today is a few kind of questions that we started going back and forth on LinkedIn, and we were like, hey, let's just do this in another podcast. So I think it was the right thing to do. What I'm going to briefly try and do is share that meme.
00;03;00;16 - 00;03;30;23
Jonny Dunning
Just so anyone who's watching this can get an idea of it. Of what we're talking about. So this is the meme of a project manager under statement of work with a mask on being unmasked by gallant CW program manager to reveal, as always, the unexpected, villain in in the story, a staff aug worker billing $75 an hour more than the staff.
00;03;30;23 - 00;04;01;19
Jonny Dunning
aug rate card. Naughty. Naughty. Happens all the time. We've all seen it. So great meme. Love it. Let me just stop sharing that. Browse back. So that topic is something that spawned a bit of a bit of a debate and a conversation between you and I, because I started rattling off a few questions to you and on I appreciate sometimes when you're posting stuff, but it might be like you're, you know, different time zones and things like that.
00;04;01;22 - 00;04;18;13
Jonny Dunning
And I was like, bam, bam, bam, here's some questions. You were like, oh, hang on a minute. What's like to think about some of these is quite deep question, which is obviously why we here to discuss them today. But immediately I saw that. I mean, it's not that long ago, you and I were, In Texas for CWS Dallas.
00;04;18;13 - 00;04;39;20
Jonny Dunning
And, you know, we get to we get to talk at these events and listen to what's going on in the market. And I my kind of reaction to seeing what that was like, how many people actually care about this? Like, like what percentage of the market is aware of it, but but not only aware of it is it feels like it's a problem that needs to be solved.
00;04;39;23 - 00;05;02;09
Jonny Dunning
And not only that, but it's truly motivated to do something about it. That was my first question of saying, okay, you've got these services procurement. The services procurement spend might sit in different categories. Some of it might be seen as like SOW spend, depending on how it's termed, that sits alongside maybe some of the contingent workforce activity.
00;05;02;12 - 00;05;32;05
Jonny Dunning
It sits in different places in different businesses. This magical world of services procurement. But effectively under these statement of work engagements, sometimes there are there are hidden hidden costs, hidden risks. And kind of like bad practices. Firstly, to expand the question a little further, what sort of percentage of companies that you deal with or that you've seen or that you hear of in the market, do you think that that is happening?
00;05;32;07 - 00;06;05;16
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a vast majority of companies are have misrepresented, you know, statement of work workers, the workers that are staff aug that are truly staff aug based on either their treatment, their usage, their engagement model, that are brought in under a statement of work. Despite that, I think most are doing that in one form or another, whether that's intentional or just it's just how, you know, intentional or not.
00;06;05;18 - 00;06;29;18
Mickey Pelletier
Right? I think many are doing that. Now to the second part of, you know, how many are looking to make a change and shift that, you know, I yeah, I wish I had numbers because obviously this has been known for a while. You know, in my early days, or working for an MSP you know, 15, 16, 17 years ago, there was this.
00;06;29;18 - 00;06;52;13
Mickey Pelletier
Oh, we need to go after this hidden spend. And it's been a big thing that that the the industry has stood on for a while. And I think if many companies were motivated to do it, you know, they would have done it already. But it's an enormous shift to go away from the model and the usage and the treatment of the workers, and the suppliers that they have relationships with.
00;06;52;15 - 00;07;07;28
Mickey Pelletier
Is there an enormous change management effort to go away from, from what they're used to? So I think companies are interested, but they're not truly serious about making, a change in their behavior.
00;07;08;00 - 00;07;21;17
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, it's really interesting. So so most companies have the problem that and you're saying it under 50%, you know, really motivated to do something about it.
00;07;21;19 - 00;07;43;20
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah, I think that's what I said in my, my post. I'd say under 50%. I mean, a ballpark figure I have. No, we need we need a solid research firm, to figure that out for us, but, yeah, definitely under 50%. And then we could talk about the reasons behind that if you are, because there's, different motivations behind that, that, that are driving that.
00;07;43;20 - 00;08;13;18
Mickey Pelletier
And I think the interesting thing is that you talk about how many companies are interested in making a change. Well, I think it's it becomes more nuanced in that because it may depend on your persona, whether you are in HR or whether you're in procurement, whether you're in the C-suite, whether you're just the hiring, the engagement manager that's trying to engage talent or trying to engage a service, your motivation is going to vary across that persona spectrum, right?
00;08;13;20 - 00;08;46;21
Mickey Pelletier
And who has the actual authority to make that change? Indeed, enough of the people at the bottom of the food chain that are doing the work, executing on a lot of this to really push that up to the true decision makers. And then you factor in the people that own the relationship with these suppliers. You know, a lot of that I hate to go after them, but the big consulting firms, you know, or maybe it is the smaller consulting firms that are clearly bringing in staff aug talent under a statement of work, saying it's services, but it's really your staff.
00;08;46;21 - 00;08;53;02
Mickey Pelletier
aug yeah. Temporary work. So yeah, couple couple thoughts on that.
00;08;53;04 - 00;09;04;07
Jonny Dunning
Well, one of the other things I was going to ask you was, do you think most organizations that have this problem, do you think they're aware of it, or do you think a lot of them just aren't really aware of it?
00;09;04;09 - 00;09;25;04
Mickey Pelletier
At a yeah, an organization level? Yes. I think they're aware that this is a thing that, hey, we are spending more than we should, or we have workers that are not appropriately classified hidden under your statement of work services. Yeah, I think they're aware of it. Yeah. I mean, the people in procurement, I think are very aware of it.
00;09;25;04 - 00;09;52;06
Mickey Pelletier
The people in H.R. That are closest to human capital management, have have a general awareness of that and are beyond that. You know, I think legal can get involved in concern when, you know, the threat of misclassification or anything comes in or anything that impacts employment law or where they need to get their hands on it. You know, technology, I don't know if they're the it, if they care so much.
00;09;52;08 - 00;10;07;02
Mickey Pelletier
But I think, you know, those sort of those personas have a general awareness, and possible appetite to make a change. But I think it's dependent upon, you know, more senior leadership to enable that change.
00;10;07;04 - 00;10;32;14
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you talk about misclassification, obviously, and the risks around that, there are a variety of risks associated with that and they can be quite region specific. Yeah. For example, if you're in Europe in, I don't know, Germany for example, very strict legislation around that. If you're in the UK now, very strict legislation around that.
00;10;32;21 - 00;10;48;09
Jonny Dunning
If you're in the US, I don't know whether it varies. You know, state to state even in some cases. But the legislation, the onus of responsibility for correct classification is more on the worker than it is on the organization. Right?
00;10;48;12 - 00;11;20;12
Mickey Pelletier
Well, I think when you come in, as you know, a temporary worker or an agency worker or staff aug one of our 50 terms to describe one thing, you know, you're the obviously you're the employee of that staffing agency. I mean, it's it's up to them to classify you appropriately. But then the idea of co employment, they're providing a worker to another, to another company to engage, you know, co employment, not using it as a dirty taboo word but the idea of joint employment, you know, control over the work.
00;11;20;15 - 00;11;43;16
Mickey Pelletier
I mean I think that is that's not really on the worker. Same thing with statement of work services. The worker is an employee of that service provider. And there's joint control engagement of that worker. I think it gets down to the worker level. When you are an independent contractor. Someone has myself I, I'm Mickey Pelletier, I'm an employee of CWM strategies.
00;11;43;16 - 00;12;13;19
Mickey Pelletier
However, I'm technically an independent consultant because I'm just a one man band, one man operation going out there. So it's very important for me to ensure that I have the, trying to think of the right word. I have all of the qualifications, the certification, the things that deem me as a true independent contractor so that when a company is going to engage me, whatever protocols they have to protect themselves, I'm living up to meet those standards.
00;12;13;19 - 00;12;47;20
Mickey Pelletier
So I think the onus ends up being me coming to the table to say, yes, I truly am an independent contractor here. Let me documented and prove it for and prove that for you. But then it's also on that company that's going to engage me to ensure that they have those protocols in place, whether that is making sure I have the proper insurance, that I am my own entity, I have a tax ID, you know, things like that, and that they also have governance and education on their side of, hey, Mickey's an independent contractor.
00;12;47;22 - 00;13;10;16
Mickey Pelletier
We can't control his work day to day. We can't tell him hour by hour what he should be doing and how he should be doing it. We end up telling him what we want, and he figures out the best way to do that, perhaps with some collaboration along the way. I mean, that's typically how I define it. So going back to the root of your question, is it really on the worker for staff aug and services?
00;13;10;18 - 00;13;33;02
Mickey Pelletier
No, it's on the employers and in the engagement company, the client, it's up to them on when and the worker level. It's really on the independent contractor in the, in the company that's engaging them to make sure they're both protecting themselves. That's where I think the, you know, the independent contractor pieces is the bigger the biggest risk.
00;13;33;05 - 00;14;04;21
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. I think that's where I say the key difference exists in terms of how that's set up in the US versus maybe Europe, for example. Right. And it and to some of the conversations I had at CWS Dallas, like the size of that worker population, that type of labor usage, service usage in the US, the amount of independent contractors that sit under a statement of work is was I was a little bit surprised by some of the volume that people were talking about.
00;14;04;23 - 00;14;29;13
Jonny Dunning
So I do know it can be potentially quite a big problem for some companies. But again, it's also delving into it, isn't it? Is understanding mapping out what your what your situation looks like in terms of how you're using external resources of any kind. So it falls into that bracket of stuff that people say is quite complicated.
00;14;29;13 - 00;15;04;27
Jonny Dunning
There's lots of, you know, different regulatory and risk, implications around it. It's not just a dead simple kind of, you know, binary 1 or 0 kind of set up. So I think that potentially does hold some people back from addressing it at some point, but some points. But the interesting thing about seeing when people do want to address it well, within the little world of services procurement I would regard is like the enlightened ones, people that for whatever reason within their organization have said, this is my responsibility.
00;15;04;27 - 00;15;29;03
Jonny Dunning
I've got the services procurement stuff to look after. It's all under statement of work engagements, some of it looks like big projects with big consulting firms, and some of it looks like body shopping, and some of it looks like tiny projects with independent contractors. But it's all set under this kind of banner of statement., statement of work type engagement models and where they're in that situation where they're like, this is my responsibility.
00;15;29;05 - 00;15;48;00
Jonny Dunning
I need to do something about it because I'm worried about X or Y, and that's when they start, you know, going out to market. Those are the people that, as I say, I've referred to as the enlightened ones. Those are the people that we try to talk to. There are very different reasons for why they want to address it, because that was one of the things when you put that post out there, I was like, what?
00;15;48;03 - 00;16;13;28
Jonny Dunning
What are you hearing? What is it? What is it? What is it that's driving the people that do want to solve this? And and you came back to me and said, I quote the usual suspects savings, things, compliance, visibility. So a nice, succinct answer, but I just want to kind of like deconstruct that a little bit because there's quite a lot to that.
00;16;14;01 - 00;16;14;24
Jonny Dunning
So, so yeah.
00;16;14;27 - 00;16;38;22
Mickey Pelletier
I mean yeah, the usual suspects I mean what why do you why do you want to, you know, take the time to provide the governance, have a technology process, all that. You know, I think a big motivator you perhaps in the finance and procurement side is, is that cost savings? You know, we go back to the meme of, you know, the worker billing $75 over a, you know, the staff aug rate card.
00;16;38;24 - 00;17;02;06
Mickey Pelletier
Or because they're under a statement of work. Right. So I mean, if you could unmask that, you know, you could bring about, you know, six, seven, eight digit savings very easily just by having, you know, the right type of classification aligned with a certain type of work. And what is the outcome you're going for? You know, I think that's just a huge component of it.
00;17;02;06 - 00;17;27;15
Mickey Pelletier
If we could bring that savings back by having classification, having classified a worker the appropriate way. Man, I think that that's a huge motivator. If you can go back to your company, be like, hey, we could save $11 million by doing this the right way and routing things to the proper channels. Obviously, the compliance standpoint, we want to make sure that our workers are aligned with the right classification.
00;17;27;17 - 00;17;47;03
Mickey Pelletier
And the implications with that, I think it gets the most murky and risky when it is an independent contractor. You know, there is risk of misclassification between, staff aug and then a services worker. But I don't think anybody's really going to go to jail for it. Not that that's legal advice, but I don't think people are as concerned.
00;17;47;03 - 00;18;12;09
Mickey Pelletier
But it is important because if you have a worker that is on services providing services to you, they're providing a service. There should be very limited control from the, from the company that's engaging them. Right. I'm asking you for a service. And the service provider, whether you're providing 1 or 100 people, that should be immaterial to us.
00;18;12;09 - 00;18;39;23
Mickey Pelletier
We're only really worried about the outcome. Right. So there's a engagement. Excuse me? There's treatments of the worker that I think differentiate that classification and direct you towards certain channels because the risk, you know, statement of work services work do tend to cost more. Why. Because the risk is on that service provider to provide it as you requested, whether that's 1 or 100 headcount under it, under warranty as well.
00;18;39;23 - 00;19;06;29
Mickey Pelletier
So if you provide them the deliverable and it's not correct, they got to go back and fix it at no additional cost because that was you're providing XYZ for ABC amount of dollars, right? So classifying the work that way is really important because it stems back to treatment and utilization, but it also stems back to the costs, the control, the responsibility, and the, the roles that both parties play in that engagement.
00;19;07;02 - 00;19;40;29
Mickey Pelletier
So I think that's a huge component of it as well, of why you want to do that and be able to classify properly. And the third piece, the third usual suspect that visibility, you know, we we said that under the statement of work, we don't necessarily care if we have 1 or 100 workers. That's up to the service provider to, you know, figure out, however, if I'm a client engaging that I would like to know the workers that are on that, particularly if they're going to have access to any IP, any of our systems.
00;19;40;29 - 00;20;02;20
Mickey Pelletier
It's good to know that, if they're going to have access to any buildings, you certainly want to be able to document that as, as well. The tricky part comes in is, as we all know, with a lot of these larger engagements, these larger, services, these larger statement of works is that people come and go. You know, I know from my time with Accenture, I pop in for a project for three days.
00;20;02;20 - 00;20;20;20
Mickey Pelletier
You know, that project had been going on for ten months, right? And I came and go. I provided my subject matter expertise, and I popped out. Should they have entered me into the VMS? You know, that's a question for debate. And some will say absolutely. Yeah, they should be we should know Mickey was attached to this statement of work at one point or another.
00;20;20;21 - 00;20;43;20
Mickey Pelletier
Others will be like, boy, that's a little bit overzealous over the top. That's too much. Right? And I think the companies that are leveraging contingent services need to make that decision. To what degree do they want visibility, and what's important to them. And you'll hear different thought leaders say different perspectives of that. Personally, I think it's important to know who is doing the work for you.
00;20;43;23 - 00;21;02;10
Mickey Pelletier
If you can name the bodies great. And what are they tied to? I also recognize that that becomes very tricky, because, of the reasons I just stated. So it's nice to know the visibility. Who's doing what, where, when, why, and at what cost.
00;21;02;13 - 00;21;26;06
Jonny Dunning
But do you think do you think in terms of knowing who it is? Is it more about knowing that you're paying for three senior associates? So you've got three senior associates, not two junior associates and one senior associate? Or is it more about knowing the individuals, knowing where that individual did a good job? Or is it or is it more about knowing about them because they're not need to log into IT systems or not?
00;21;26;06 - 00;21;48;04
Jonny Dunning
We mentioned IP and stuff like that. Yeah. I think the very thing is, is it making sure you're not getting ripped off with the type of person? Because ultimately, if if an external provider is delivering a service on an output or outcome basis, which is the very definition of what we're talking about procured services, that's what a statement of work contract is designed to capture.
00;21;48;06 - 00;22;07;08
Jonny Dunning
What what are you as a service provider going to deliver to me as a client as measurable outputs? Yeah. Is it is it is it about am I getting what you said you give me, or is it more of the kind of like info security and that sort of thing?
00;22;07;10 - 00;22;24;16
Mickey Pelletier
And that's why it's fun. That's why I wanted to talk this through versus having a comment chat, because that's so nuanced. And what is the right answer? It varies from client to client and what they think is, appropriate. And I think that it varies from statement of work to statement of work. And what are you trying to accomplish?
00;22;24;16 - 00;22;48;02
Mickey Pelletier
Like, if we know that Mickey and Jonny are attached to the SOW and they're going to be working on it for the next year, yeah, it'd be good to know, who they are, particularly if they're going to be on site or have any access to things. I think depending on the arrangement as well as, you know, we are billing an offshore worker, at a U.S rate.
00;22;48;05 - 00;23;03;26
Mickey Pelletier
You know, if you do happen to have a time and material, statement of work. I know a lot of people aren't fans of those, but I think there is an appropriate time for that. Based on what the work is being done, as long as there's outcomes tied to it. You know, I want to make sure.
00;23;03;26 - 00;23;31;24
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah. I'm not getting ripped off. If you're having a worker in Manila, than we have manila rates, you know, and I think that's that's an appropriate, you know, use case of visibility and why you want to track that. You know, I think there is a level of trust with the statement of work and that you are the service and the workers you're putting out there are equivalent to, what is needed to accomplish the outcome.
00;23;31;24 - 00;23;52;11
Mickey Pelletier
So that's that's sort of the tricky thing. Like there's a lot of it depends what are you trying to do. And I think Jonny, that's part of the reason why there is reservation or hesitation about shaking things up and really going after it, because it requires an immense amount of analysis on each particular statement of work and the bodies that are attached to that underneath.
00;23;52;15 - 00;24;10;27
Mickey Pelletier
And how is that work being done? And does this require us to know each worker and where they are and the who, what, where? That's sort of the funny thing where I love this industry is, is that's very debatable. But it also causes a lot of confusion, a lot of concern around the work effort that goes into that.
00;24;10;27 - 00;24;48;15
Mickey Pelletier
Because when you think of, man, we have 500 statements of work across that. We have about 30,000 head count attached to those boy, how do you go in and dissect that statement of work? By statement of work to get the data you need to give you the full visibility that may be needed. Right? I think that's one of the complexities that I think leads to companies saying like, you know, we'll just continue with the status quo, even though we may not have the cost savings, the visibility, the compliance that we would, you know, optimally want to have.
00;24;48;18 - 00;25;07;00
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. And it's got to be a strong enough driver. So anyone to want to do something about it. And that's not every company and it's not every set up. But it's not every state, every stakeholder that could then not necessarily like you say, for reasons you mentioned, they're not necessarily all going to be motivated to do something about it, but just to pick up on a few things you mentioned there.
00;25;07;03 - 00;25;17;24
Jonny Dunning
You know, you mentioned there are, you know, those people who aren't fans of, time and materials. SOW I can tell you, there are plenty of people that definitely are fans of the time and materials what would.
00;25;17;26 - 00;25;45;05
Mickey Pelletier
I say it? Because as a as a professional like and everything I've been taught and everything I advocate, well, time and material really shouldn't be on a statement of work. But I've seen very good use cases where where it does make sense, particularly when it is tied to an outcome. But there's also a cap on it. You know, we're not going to you know, Jonny's spending $150 an hour, but there's a cap because the outcome is still under warranty.
00;25;45;05 - 00;26;05;08
Mickey Pelletier
And if Jhnny didn't get his part right, he's going to continue to work to get it right at no extra charge because we've hit our cap of what we committed to. We were originally going to spend. Right. You know, but then there's also entire outsourced like call centers. I've seen call centers outsource and, you know, Jonny's coming in to be the phone operator for us.
00;26;05;11 - 00;26;26;15
Mickey Pelletier
Well, we're not going to likely charge a, a flat fee. We certainly can. That's an opportunity. But what about when the phone volume is low and Jonny's only working two hours a week? You know, versus the full 40, right? We may want it to be on time and material at that point, because, yes, we've outsourced this service for you to manage our call center.
00;26;26;15 - 00;26;48;06
Mickey Pelletier
But we don't want to pay more than your output. So there's a productivity cost or a productivity pay that's attached to it, which you could call time and material as well. So, it's funny because, yeah, a lot of it and it's easy. It's easy. Well, we'll bring you on understatement of work and, you know, just just send us an invoice for the amount of hours that you work for the week, okay?
00;26;48;07 - 00;26;59;00
Mickey Pelletier
Okay. Hopefully there's some, hopefully there's some controls around that. Otherwise things could get out of control very quickly. If it if it's not, not governed appropriately.
00;26;59;02 - 00;27;20;19
Jonny Dunning
Well, that's where you tend to find some of the people that are like, I really need to do something about this is where it has got out of control. Because if you've got like headcount freezes within the organization, but hey, I can get a P.O. for a statement of work up to X, nice big value. And suddenly everything that's going through you said, you know, $100,000 value, suddenly everything's going for a $99,000.
00;27;20;19 - 00;27;43;05
Jonny Dunning
You know, all these projects that are going through the the time material and you find a lot of companies that are basically sort of saying, look, you know, an MSP is dealing with problems where they're saying there's a lot of TNM within this statement, within this statement of work spend or the services given spend, but the aim is to shift it towards real, pure output based statement of work services procurement.
00;27;43;07 - 00;28;03;25
Jonny Dunning
And I think ultimately there's an argument to say if you're buying outputs, you shouldn't care who's doing it. And to a certain extent, you shouldn't care whether where the person is located, because ultimately, if that company can deliver the effective result that you pay for and they're generating efficiencies on their end, good, good for them. You know, they.
00;28;03;25 - 00;28;23;20
Mickey Pelletier
Do that value based. Yeah. Value based pricing. And yeah, I mean that's why I love this because there are arguments for both sides. And it really comes down to that individual statement of work. What are you trying to accomplish and what is the most effective method to get that. Whether that's pricing output, there's so many angles to look at it.
00;28;23;20 - 00;28;33;10
Mickey Pelletier
And I love your counter to what I just said, because that's a very real point that like, hey, I, I don't disagree with you that that is definitely an angle.
00;28;33;13 - 00;28;56;11
Jonny Dunning
But I think ultimately it to a certain extent, it doesn't matter how you do it, because I totally agree with what you're saying, that there are there are certain engagements where within a statement of work based contract, some of the outputs might be blocks of consulting time, blocks of time and materials efficiently. Which which is perfectly legitimate within the right structure.
00;28;56;14 - 00;29;18;04
Jonny Dunning
I think the, the key thing is that by not having the visibility but not having the rigor, if you haven't got that, you're never going to be able to check the reality of what you're paying for matches. What was contracted. That's where things get a bit sticky, and that's where visibility is. This kind of center point of you paying for stuff.
00;29;18;04 - 00;29;50;00
Jonny Dunning
You kind of know what you're getting and you know what's going on. But the the thing that always occurs to me is when you look at this sort of thing and look at the debate we're having in the conversation around this discussion. Companies want to make it easy for the people that need to get work done within their organization to get that done, like their company is going to be pretty inefficient if there's stuff that needs doing and the people that need to do it can't do it, you know, they need to be able to either a permanent employee or, you know, bring in an interim or a temp or a or a, you
00;29;50;00 - 00;30;15;24
Jonny Dunning
know, a independent contractor or whatever it might be, or outsource it to, a service provider to do the work. And so procurement. But where, where does this kind of messy situation that's quite complicated procurement and or contingent workforce. H.R. If either pushed out of the way sometimes or feel they need to get out of the way because they can't handle the volume and the complexity of it.
00;30;15;26 - 00;30;34;00
Jonny Dunning
But with that ease, you lose all the rigor. And that's the other side of it. There's incredibly important feels like this constant trade off between ease and rigor, because the rigor within that organization might be we put in headcount freezes for a reason. We don't want people bringing in like, you know, paying to get this work done.
00;30;34;00 - 00;30;53;14
Jonny Dunning
We should be doing it with internal teams. So why the hell is all this stuff getting, you know, squeezed out? Where where effectively this body shopping is happening in the background with disguised, contracting being pulled in. That might be a reason why the company says we need rigor around this. Or it might be, you know, a risk factor around misclassification.
00;30;53;14 - 00;31;17;11
Jonny Dunning
Or it could be a safety critical industry where people are statement of work, workers are under terrible contracts and really poor, compliance. And they're working on a, you know, a road or a rail, type situation. The could be, you know, a worker could get killed and they haven't got the provider hasn't got the right insurances or the contract doesn't cover the liability.
00;31;17;15 - 00;31;31;18
Jonny Dunning
Whatever it might be. So there's lots of things to to kind of think about that. But it feels like this trade off between ease and rigor in, in, in basically being able to get work done. Would you, would you agree with that?
00;31;31;20 - 00;31;54;13
Mickey Pelletier
Could I have anything you want? We can have everything you want. Right. So like the. Yeah. I love thinking in analogies. So I'm trying to think of the, the right one. You know, there's I want to get to point A to point B as fast as I can. I can't just drive my car through my neighbor's yard.
00;31;54;13 - 00;32;21;16
Mickey Pelletier
I have to go on the roads and then on the roads, I have to abide by the traffic laws. And then there's other people there, and I have to be mindful of them. Know there's so much stuff that we have in place because it it allows us to do it. Maybe not as easy as we would like, but it's also, you know, the idea of of getting, you know, depending on the size of your enterprise, 100 to, you know, 100,000 people to follow a standardized protocol.
00;32;21;18 - 00;32;47;11
Mickey Pelletier
Well, it's so we have control and standardization around it. Now, is that standardization always the easiest way to get things done? No, but it allows us to know that the outcome and the way things are being done, it is it is all the same. And when you come down to, you know, things such as cost savings, compliance and visibility, you know that standardization is super critical for that.
00;32;47;11 - 00;33;25;04
Mickey Pelletier
And I think that's where this industry struggles, particularly around, you know, services based work and procurement and statement of work. And, is the there's no just easy way of getting all that savings, compliance and visibility, without dragging the process out. And I think that's something a lot of the providers are thinking about critically. And how could we drive down this time and make it easier and, you know, enable the business to do what they need to do without creating so much red tape?
00;33;25;06 - 00;33;45;07
Mickey Pelletier
You know, and I think that's that, that's, that's part of that the drawback, of, of all of this, because, boy, it's really easy to just call it my favorite. It, my, my favorite IT consulting firm. And we already have a statement of work, so. Yeah, we need another guy, and bam, they're there tomorrow.
00;33;45;07 - 00;34;07;19
Mickey Pelletier
It's really that easy, right? Because we already have the statement of work. We're already set up. But, we don't necessarily know who this person is. What? They're being paid. What? What are they actually doing? We're just adding a body. Well, what's going on? Why do we need to add a body? You know, there's certain things there that you take away from that compliance, saving and savings and visibility.
00;34;07;21 - 00;34;28;15
Mickey Pelletier
If we don't have those proper protocols in place. So the objective is to find that balance of ease of use, ease of access to talent, but also still giving you the things that businesses need. But what are their priorities if they don't care about savings, compliance and visibility? Hell yeah. Call up your your favorite consulting firm and get your guy tomorrow.
00;34;28;15 - 00;34;42;12
Mickey Pelletier
But what's your priority? You know that's and who's driving that priority and at what level are they within the organization that the to have the authority to say this is how we're all doing it?
00;34;42;14 - 00;35;06;07
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. The drivers are so varied in reality like we did we did a survey on the SIA and the CWS summit, so we're when we were sponsors. We did this primarily at the European event in London, and we ran a survey looking at what are the key drivers around people, why people in our address services, procurement, what are the key barriers, you know, who owns the problem.
00;35;06;07 - 00;35;35;23
Jonny Dunning
All this really, really interesting stuff and just the drivers. There was a fairly even split between kind of like, you know, risk mitigation, process efficiencies, cost savings. And yeah, just general kind of like compliance and governance. I think it was the last one, but it was there was there was a split. It wasn't like everybody. And you know what a lot of people will say cost savings.
00;35;35;26 - 00;36;00;10
Jonny Dunning
But that isn't actually necessarily the big driver for a lot of organizations. It's surprising how many organizations will say, well, you know, yeah, we are probably spending way more than we should be. But, you know, no one's caring about that right now. And that might be an organization, that particular situation where they're very profitable and they're just used to the used to the wastage, and they used to the legacy of doing things in a certain way.
00;36;00;10 - 00;36;27;18
Jonny Dunning
And they're not really even thinking about that or worrying about it. Whereas another organization might be really up against it due to, you know, market or industry factors that mean they've got to cut costs, they've got to be lean, they can't have any wastage. But but the one driver that really does seem to universally motivate organizations and stakeholders within organizations is where there's risk that's keeping that person awake at night because they're thinking, my job is that is at stake.
00;36;27;18 - 00;36;49;20
Jonny Dunning
My my reputation is at stake, or my company's reputation is at stake here, or I'm going to be in big trouble if something goes wrong with this. From a compliance perspective. And, and that kind of reputational risk around, for example, in Europe or in the UK, organizations getting fined by the government for having misclassification issues and big fines.
00;36;49;27 - 00;36;53;02
Jonny Dunning
You know, the fine’s bad. but so is the reputational damage.
00;36;53;05 - 00;36;53;29
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah.
00;36;54;01 - 00;37;18;17
Jonny Dunning
And again, that's where it comes back to some of the kind of safety critical type stuff in industries like on an aerospace or, you know, digital infrastructure, telecoms, that sort of thing, where organizations have got workers that are coming in service providers, construction engineering, something engineering, all that sort of stuff, where it's actually safety critical work is being done.
00;37;18;19 - 00;37;41;05
Jonny Dunning
And, and that tends to lean more towards the general thing of like there's risks here, which we just cannot accept and therefore we need to do something about it. And that that sometimes feels to me like a generally a stronger driver than cost savings. And it's almost like, yeah, of course cost savings is going to be the priority for some people, but it's like it's the obvious label that a lot of people will give it.
00;37;41;12 - 00;38;06;17
Jonny Dunning
Whereas actually the thing that will get them off their chair to really jump up and down and scream and shout and say, we have to do something about this will be a risk that I just feel is unacceptable, will cost savings will probably be made, almost certainly be made significantly as a byproduct of addressing that risk. But but that's that's something that I've noticed, which is again, where it comes down to like this rigor being a key driver.
00;38;06;20 - 00;38;13;07
Jonny Dunning
But like you say, you can't just disrupt the way the organization does business. What do you think that I mean, in terms of the kind of like.
00;38;13;07 - 00;38;33;19
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah, no, I love it, I love it. It's funny because growing up, in the industry, you know, I didn't go to school for contingent workforce. None of us did. But then he started getting onto projects and various things. And you hear the word risk. Risk? It's just sort of this catchall. But I struggle with thinking, what do you what do you mean by risk?
00;38;33;19 - 00;38;59;24
Mickey Pelletier
Like. And I think that's very there's, you know, some of the things you cited. Yeah. Are risky. You know, when you're working in, you know, high danger, you know, high danger jobs, right? You think about mining, oil and gas, mining, anything like that where it's like, hey, there's this, like, real risk of harm to to coming to somebody, you know, but then there's, like, risk of misclassification and does does your provider.
00;38;59;24 - 00;39;20;12
Mickey Pelletier
I on this particular statement of work, do they have subs that are subs of subs and who is the actual employer? And are these independent contractors. You have things like that that's risk you a personal well-being which is risk. You have you know, they have access to your buildings or your IP things like that. That could be risk there.
00;39;20;12 - 00;39;46;06
Mickey Pelletier
And I think it's so important to define like when when you're concerned about risk or compliance, what does that mean to you? Enterprise. And how are you solving that. Because risk I think, is a vague term. We used to generalize something that could could affect our PR, could affect our our legacy, not our legacy could affect, you know, how we're how we're viewed to the greater good.
00;39;46;09 - 00;40;05;26
Mickey Pelletier
To the greater world and how people want to either work with us, engage with us, how people buy and consume our products. Right. So that's the funny thing about risk. I'm like, yeah, you can go a hundred different ways depending on what is what is risk mean and how are you defining it in the context of contingent work?
00;40;05;26 - 00;40;23;19
Mickey Pelletier
Non employee labor services whatnot. So and I think you cited some really good examples, but I'll always go back to like oh like so many things in our, in our, our businesses. Definition. And what, what does it mean to you.
00;40;23;22 - 00;40;41;23
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. No I agree I feel like I mean, it's the same in any industries. Now there are if, if you, if you get involved in a new industry. I used to work in the job board sector back in the day, and that was how I kind of got into this, this whole, industry around how organizations use tech to get work done.
00;40;41;26 - 00;41;11;28
Jonny Dunning
And I, I basically founded or set up, I managed quite a few, like, niche job boards. I set up some of the earlier niche job boards in the UK and Europe, and kind of rolled them out to larger organizations, and it was really interesting every time we rolled out for new industry, banking and finance or oil and gas, whatever it might be, insurance, you know, you had to learn about a new industry sector and then ultimately they're all cloaked in a veil of terminology, acronyms.
00;41;11;28 - 00;41;35;13
Jonny Dunning
I mean, you know, people in procurement say the time it's terrible for acronyms. So is engineering. So, so is everything. So when you're looking at like taxonomic classifications of sectors and things like that, there's always like loads of complication around, how it's actually broken down. But I sometimes feel like there's organizations are kind of overcomplicating this.
00;41;35;15 - 00;41;52;07
Jonny Dunning
And that's one of the problems, like you were talking about, like organizations sometimes wanting to drill into. Okay, so Mickey and Jonny working on this project, how much are they getting paid? Where are they based, which offices are they accessing, what they're actually doing? How many days have they been involved? All this. What you know, what are they specifically doing?
00;41;52;11 - 00;42;17;01
Jonny Dunning
What are the results like against those individuals? Things like that. When you're when an organization is taking the approach of worrying about the people doing the work, it makes it, in my opinion, very difficult to just buy an outcome, buy an output, with which with kind of the true, kind of like core nature of services procurement is that's what you're buying.
00;42;17;01 - 00;42;36;01
Jonny Dunning
That's why you're that's why you're paying more and that's why. And you're outsourcing the risk and you're just saying you're passing on the liability and saying, look, how have you do it? You've agreed to do it in three months for $5 million. Therefore off you go. Tell me when it's done, make sure it's on time and make sure you do a good job.
00;42;36;01 - 00;42;58;27
Jonny Dunning
Otherwise there are penalties and warranties and etc. etc. so where organizations take that point of view, it's a lot simpler for them to be able to put that in a bracket, contract it effectively, measure it effectively. Versus and they could address the issue more than if they're saying, hey, look, for every single one of these service providers, I'm they need to know what's the day rate
00;42;58;29 - 00;43;23;20
Jonny Dunning
That I need to work. I need to tie it back to day rates. I need to understand hours, people who's doing what? Where are they based, all this sort of stuff that really overcomplicate it, in my opinion. But but a lot of companies think like that. Do you think maybe, maybe they need to change the way they think, or do you think that some organizations are going to have to work like that, and they're going to have to know that information?
00;43;23;22 - 00;44;05;28
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah, I again, it depends. And I feel like it's that's what makes, the industry complex. And also exciting is that with each client and enterprise, like you never know what you're going to get and what's, what's important to them and what you're going back to the definition of like what is what is risky to them. And I mean, I think as, as an industry, we've, you know, having been on the client side, having been on the provider side, I think we've providers have done a fair job of assessing what they've seen across the industry, from the MSP from the VMS, from the direct sourcing providers, like we've we've generally been able to
00;44;05;28 - 00;44;30;19
Mickey Pelletier
come to the table of collectively, these are all the things we've seen and most contingent workforce problems. You know, I know within 30 minutes of a conversation, 80% of what the problem is. Right? But then there's nuances within it of how you actually solve for it. So I yeah, I mean, I think generally we've, we've, we've done well with that.
00;44;30;21 - 00;45;15;27
Mickey Pelletier
I think part of the problem on that the client and, you know, enterprise side is that there's varying degrees of education and knowledge of, of this space that the, the lowly and lone contingent workforce program owner that has a lot of that collective knowledge of the industry, you know, they don't they're not given the proper pedestal and the proper voicing and the proper positioning within a company to go strategically, you know, help the business understand all of that and, and educate them on on the changes that they need to make in terms of, evaluating a lot of this, I think that becomes part of the bigger problem is, is, yeah, do organizations need
00;45;15;27 - 00;45;37;01
Mickey Pelletier
to shift? Well, a little bit. Yeah. But I think it it comes down to enabling a subject matter expert in this space to really help them make the change that's impactful for that, that particular business. So I don't I'm kind of all over the place with that answer. But it's it's a tough one to answer.
00;45;37;04 - 00;46;03;26
Jonny Dunning
Well, it's it's a good point that you make though, because you're talking about who are the responsible parties within an organization. And a lot of the time within a lot of organizations, no one is responsible for services, procurement. It's as simple as that. It's like some of it will sit within certain procurement categories and they'll sit across various different services categories marketing, professional services, IT services, facilities, whatever it might be.
00;46;03;29 - 00;46;26;20
Jonny Dunning
And then you might have contingent workforce stakeholders to some of it sit there and some of it kind of sits nowhere, or there's power floating around and the responsibilities just with the, the, the buying manager, effectively the engagement manager who's sitting in the business trying to get the work done. And they can just sort self sign it off because it's tail spend and it's below $250,000 order value.
00;46;26;23 - 00;46;58;05
Jonny Dunning
But it's really interesting. Now starting to talk to more people, are services procurement specialist. And they’re badged as that. It's like, I don't know if you manage to, chat to, Todd from, McDonald's, at the CWS Dallas. Super interesting guy on on. I definitely want to try and, you know, get together with him for, for a conversation around this, but but he's a specialist in services procurement, and he's got a team who are specialist in services procurement.
00;46;58;08 - 00;47;21;00
Jonny Dunning
And that's a that's a very clear remit to solve this problem and to bring this stuff together, because it's not the same as contingent workforce. It's it's something different. It's a different, work delivery channel. In effect, it contracted in a different way. The principals are different. The business drivers for using that route are different. And it's like, wow, really forward thinking to see that.
00;47;21;00 - 00;47;41;12
Jonny Dunning
But there's not that many people in that situation. There's not that many people doing that or badged as that with, as you say, the kind of responsibility and the, just given the leverage within the business to actually say, right, okay, I'm going to solve this problem. I'm going to make this a really effective channel for us to get stuff done when it needs to be done.
00;47;41;12 - 00;47;53;12
Jonny Dunning
Like, this is going to work beautifully, and we're going to know we're getting good value and we're going to know it's all buttoned down and done properly. I'm starting to see more of that starting to happen now.
00;47;53;14 - 00;48;35;12
Mickey Pelletier
First off, yeah, Todd Todd's awesome shout out to Todd. And he's done some very cool things with the McDonald's program over there, particularly when it comes to the statement of work services procurement area. I mean, and he's a good, a good a very good use case. Yeah. Secondly, yeah. And it's interesting when you talk about the dynamic and the difference between contingent work and, you know, services procurement, I, I consider all non employee talent contingent workforce, you know, and I differentiate, you know, with the staff aug temporary services and then then I see but there you know obviously anybody who's listening you're obviously keen on on the difference between the
00;48;35;12 - 00;48;56;24
Mickey Pelletier
services and the staff aug And we we get all that. There's there's clear differences there. But I think that's one thing we see with, that I've seen personally talking with companies of and I'm not picking on the MSP but what I've heard was feedback of like, well, we don't want the MSP to manage our services procurement.
00;48;56;24 - 00;49;21;01
Mickey Pelletier
They don't know our business. We don't want them touching our stuff. You know, we don't want them to handle all that. We would rather do that in-house. And that's not a fault of the MSP I think the opportunity there is you talk about these procurement and services procurement specialists, you know, if they have those type of roles and people that are specifically trained on that, perhaps they can serve a purpose there.
00;49;21;01 - 00;49;24;27
Mickey Pelletier
But, it you if.
00;49;24;29 - 00;49;30;19
Jonny Dunning
You're saying if the MSP have people who've got those skills, are you saying if the in-house teams have those capabilities?
00;49;30;19 - 00;49;51;14
Mickey Pelletier
Well, I think I think, both both sides are obviously important to have. Is that that specialist skill? I think if the MSP wants to take some of that business, obviously they have the rights. They want to have the right level of skill to gain the trust of the business they're working with and then show their credibility and then do well for the client and for the MSPs listening.
00;49;51;14 - 00;50;22;00
Mickey Pelletier
That's, you know, no kidding. They know that they're aware of that. And that's one thing they're working on. But I think there's a fear of how well would they know our business. And I think even if it's internal, they need to be well versed on the, the processes, the protocols, what's important to them as they're going through the procurement process with any type of statement of work and making sure that it is a specialist, you can't just throw your recruiter, staff aug you know, person.
00;50;22;02 - 00;50;31;09
Jonny Dunning
100%. No, it you know what I think the MSPs are getting better at this. They really are getting better. Some of the MSPs are really invested in bringing in.
00;50;31;12 - 00;50;49;09
Mickey Pelletier
They have an MSPs listening. I'm not saying you've done wrong. I think those are just reservations that I've heard from clients. And I know that they're that your work, that you're working on, that you're trying to bring the best talent forward, and you're not just throwing your talent acquisition person. That's pushing through requisitions on the staff aug side.
00;50;49;11 - 00;51;11;01
Mickey Pelletier
Onto the services procurement. Yeah, obviously you want to have the specialized person that that knows category management, that knows procurement management and knows the nuances of navigating a statement of work that can negotiate. They understand the contractual terms and the terms and conditions that that go into a statement of work and have that relationship management experience as well.
00;51;11;01 - 00;51;20;15
Mickey Pelletier
It does requires, a special type of person, a type of skillset to, to be able to manage all that.
00;51;20;17 - 00;51;43;12
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. It's, it's very interesting to see the pace of change. I mean, I think there's a lot of change going on in procurement in general. Definitely from a procurement technology standpoint, in the sense that there's there's so many there's so much change going on in the procurement technology market. Like if you look at marketing technology, it's super mature.
00;51;43;14 - 00;52;02;23
Jonny Dunning
Lots of vendors, lots of very big unicorn vendors. It's worth, you know, a large amount of billions in terms of what that technology market is worth. It's quite well-established. Procurement technology is just going through absolute like hockey stick, growth phase, inline hockey, not ice hockey. Just in case you were wondering.
00;52;02;25 - 00;52;05;29
Mickey Pelletier
All good. All are good.
00;52;06;02 - 00;52;30;11
Jonny Dunning
But but that, you know. And so the big suites are becoming less of a thing of like, oh, you can't do anything outside of that. It's just that a literally over the last two years, that philosophy has just been, like broken by the market, just just expanding and innovating. And I think just the way that procurement, you know, are involved in the running of businesses and how that what the strategic impact is, that's massively changing as well.
00;52;30;11 - 00;52;52;26
Jonny Dunning
So seeing people like, Todd, we need a specialist role with the great stuff he's doing and other people in similar areas and similar people with basically similar skills operating that across multiple customers within MSPs successfully, where they are building that trust and they are managing to make that move forward. It's a real step change in what organizations are doing.
00;52;52;29 - 00;53;13;03
Jonny Dunning
And it's but but still, in either case, whether it's McDonald's with what Todd and his team are doing there or whether it's an organization that have said, well, we can't do it internally, we don't have the talent, therefore we can or we don't have the capacity. Therefore, we're going to bring in an MSP. You solve that problem and deliver the results for us.
00;53;13;05 - 00;53;35;04
Jonny Dunning
Both parties are making a commitment, an investment that's going to solve that problem for them. And and what I wanted to kind of like round off the conversation talking about was just what do you see as what have you seen as and what do you see as the benefits the organization can realize? And I know that sounds quite obvious in terms of like, well, clearly it's solving problems.
00;53;35;04 - 00;53;53;24
Jonny Dunning
We just been discussing. But but in in reality, what do you see as the kind of what are the benefits that just, you know, really stand out that you think organizations could should consider when they're looking at this and maybe thinking, haven't got the time, too difficult, do we really need to worry about it?
00;53;53;27 - 00;53;54;13
Mickey Pelletier
Yeah. Well, the.
00;53;54;13 - 00;53;57;00
Jonny Dunning
With.
00;53;57;02 - 00;54;01;23
Mickey Pelletier
The usual suspects savings, compliance and visibility. The.
00;54;01;25 - 00;54;03;23
Jonny Dunning
Other benefits in terms of, in terms of those. Yeah.
00;54;03;24 - 00;54;31;14
Mickey Pelletier
No, I, no, I, I it's because like that I think rooted in that there's, there's deeper things. I mean, I think it's just about this idea of workforce orchestration and knowing what your. That the problems you're solving, the problems you're attempting to solve, have the appropriate talent aligned to accomplish that, whether that is a temp worker, whether that is a contingent worker, whether that's outsourcing.
00;54;31;14 - 00;54;53;10
Mickey Pelletier
Because we know company X can do this way better than us, more efficiently, that maybe they'll save us money, whatever. But they could do it well because that's what they do. I think it's recognizing, like the strength of categorizing work in a way that enables the proper channels to get you the talent or the outcomes that you need.
00;54;53;13 - 00;55;14;04
Mickey Pelletier
And by not taking that seriously, not investing in, you know, the talent, the infrastructure, technology, governance, whatever, have you, I think you're missing out. And the way of work is changing as we look at, you know, remote work was hot for like 3 or 4 years through the pandemic. Now there's a lot of the return to office.
00;55;14;04 - 00;55;44;21
Mickey Pelletier
But when you look at the capabilities within the freelance sector and the remote work that is often associated with that man and the niche talent that you could have, that there's a lot to be said that I think some companies are starting to, stick their head in and look at because I think there's opportunity there. You know, when it comes back to the services procurement side, the, the benefits they can receive by properly doing it, you know, I think go beyond just those usual suspects of savings, compliance and visibility.
00;55;44;21 - 00;56;05;14
Mickey Pelletier
It's there's peace of mind of knowing that the outcome we're going for is to be met because we have the right provider and it's meeting our individual needs, not just because as an industry says, oh, you should be targeting savings, compliance and and visibility. But hey, you know what? We are getting the visibility and the compliance out of this.
00;56;05;14 - 00;56;32;06
Mickey Pelletier
We're not saving as much as we want. However, it's giving the outcome we need. And so I think there's just efficiencies that can be gained by aligning the right channels and proper properly setting up, your services procurement team or your MSP or your contingent workforce team to, to do that and the benefits, you know, kind of come out based on what your priorities are and what your what you're moving towards.
00;56;32;06 - 00;56;45;03
Mickey Pelletier
And it's hard to say, like, these are the benefits you're going to receive, because I think all of those are their standard ones. But I think they become very unique in the problems that you as a company are trying to solve with talent.
00;56;45;06 - 00;57;21;10
Jonny Dunning
And do you think there's maybe an argument to kind of like. Stack those benefits up to say that ultimately, if you get this stuff organized in terms of your organizational work capacity and work capability, whatever that is, full time employees, interim temps, contractors, outsource service providers. If you've got that buttoned down, then you can take a flexible approach in a highly changeable market, and you can get stuff done when you need to get it done.
00;57;21;12 - 00;57;35;23
Jonny Dunning
And actually, if you don't do that, other people are doing that or, you know, are you going to are you going to be a disadvantage in the market where things are just changing so fast? Is there an argument for that, do you think?
00;57;35;25 - 00;57;58;00
Mickey Pelletier
Oh, absolutely. And I go back to the idea of workforce planning. Like if you can have under wraps your talent and you know the visibility, you have a good wrap on the channels to get you the right talent to accomplish the goals you need to do. You know, we go back to the idea of workforce planning. Workforce planning, when you look at your entire human capital spectrum, is is absolute chaos.
00;57;58;00 - 00;58;21;28
Mickey Pelletier
How could I possibly know we're going to need this many FTE is we need this many temps, we're going to outsource this. Much like that's really hard because business change, there's there's just so much dynamics in the world that that impact that. And I think what even sets it up for further, difficulty is by not having a good grasp on your existing workforce to begin with.
00;58;21;28 - 00;58;45;12
Mickey Pelletier
Once you know that and enables, you know, data, data of your current state around what the various workforce look like in the problems you solve, the projects you've done, and what you've done with that existing, you know, human capital or, or even the on your services as well. So by not doing that, I think you prohibit yourself to have effective what I wouldn't call workforce planning because that's pure chaos.
00;58;45;12 - 00;59;21;00
Mickey Pelletier
But tying it back to skills planning, what are the skills that your company needs to accomplish the goals? Because it's no longer this. We need a level three database administrator to help us with this. No, we need somebody with XYZ skills. Suddenly these titles don't matter anymore. And when you start tying your existing workforce, the skills that are there that enable skill skills planning, which I think overrides your workforce planning and becomes a more tangible component of of that, that greater planning, which is, like I said, pure chaos.
00;59;21;03 - 00;59;41;29
Mickey Pelletier
So I think you're trying to tie it back. I think that becomes the ultimate benefit of orchestrating your your talent. Excuse me, orchestrating your workforce is that it enables you to have a good grasp on the skills you need based on existing data to help you plan for the future and where your business goes and the skills that are needed for that.
00;59;41;29 - 00;59;46;03
Mickey Pelletier
That's that's ultimately, I think the greatest benefit.
00;59;46;05 - 01;00;08;20
Jonny Dunning
I think you put it really well. I remember a, CEO of a large global media company once saying to me, that one of the most important things I need to know is what is the most effective use of my resources? What capacity and capability can I bring to bear as an organization to do what I need to do and what's the best use of it?
01;00;08;22 - 01;00;30;20
Jonny Dunning
And that kind of ties into exactly what you said in there is that capability planning. We see, we see a lot of organizations within their services supply chain doing like horizon planning type exercises of, you know, we're going to need capabilities in AI or cybersecurity or whatever it might be. You know what? What do we have? What capability do we have within our supply chain?
01;00;30;26 - 01;00;48;25
Jonny Dunning
Do we need to build out our supply chain? Do we need to build the resilience in that supply chain? It's really interesting to see that sort of stuff starting to come through because when people can get sight of it, they start getting interested in going, oh well, who's got the does this, that and the other. The opportunities that arise of like, well, we could do this in that mode or we could do it in that mode of work.
01;00;48;28 - 01;01;15;10
Jonny Dunning
And that's that's where organizations are going to be really effective. So yeah, I think you you some that are very nicely and for me, that's where it gets really exciting because what you're doing is you're pulling up out of the kind of like chaotic beauty feels like. It's complicated and difficult to solve, to coming to the really important thing of saying, how do we make this organization like, you know, razor sharp and really effective and really competitive.
01;01;15;13 - 01;01;40;20
Mickey Pelletier
When you I love your point around like the the supply chain planning, you know, do we have the skills within that supply chain planning to really bring about the skills we think we're going to need in the future? And I think there's also an idea to of when you understand your existing workforce, there's redeployment opportunities there. We know these these these particular workers with these skills are winding down.
01;01;40;20 - 01;01;43;12
Mickey Pelletier
Well, let's shift them over here. And,
01;01;43;12 - 01;02;06;26
Mickey Pelletier
I think I think when you have the proper workforce orchestration with the appropriate skills planning, I think it mitigates some of the risk that companies end up having to, you know, go to layoffs because they made a bad bet. Right. And I think that's, a key piece that you can also prevent that by just, appropriately planning the skills that you need, being able to redeploy as needed.
01;02;06;26 - 01;02;25;25
Mickey Pelletier
And there's just less churn there because you have what you need right in front of you. You have your supply chain to back you up when you're running low or with existing talent, existing services. So you have a two pronged approach that I think makes it more holistic and, you know, full proofing and planning for the future.
01;02;25;27 - 01;02;38;01
Jonny Dunning
Yeah. I think, you know, some people might be sitting there listening to this, going, oh, congratulations, guys. You just described the perfect world. But but I'd say it is unattainable. But the great thing now.
01;02;38;03 - 01;02;39;05
Mickey Pelletier
Easier said than done.
01;02;39;08 - 01;03;02;26
Jonny Dunning
Totally easier said than done. 100% agree with you, but actually, it's it's easier to do than a lot of people think it is. And you've only got to look at people that are already doing it, like we mentioned Todd earlier. And there's other great examples of organizations that are doing a great job of this technology vendors, MSPs, internal procurement teams, contingent workforce teams that are doing great work in this area.
01;03;02;29 - 01;03;16;03
Jonny Dunning
And I think it's very important to share the knowledge and to share that information, because it doesn't have to just be classed as well. There's no way you can solve that. There are people out there solving it and getting the benefits from it now.
01;03;16;03 - 01;03;33;23
Mickey Pelletier
So it's a matter of making it up, making it the priority, though. What do you want to solve and how big? How big of a deal is it to you to solve like it's is it is it a fair amount of work? Absolutely. All of this is but what's the priority. And it's it's not typically it's not really that hard.
01;03;33;23 - 01;03;37;29
Mickey Pelletier
You just need to have the right people aligned to do it, to bring it to life.
01;03;38;02 - 01;03;49;13
Jonny Dunning
Yeah, 100% agree. Excellent stuff. Well really enjoyed that, Mickey Thank you so much for joining me again. How could we couldn't have put that in. I mean imagine if we tried to do that in LinkedIn comments I think we’d have broken LinkedIn
01;03;49;13 - 01;03;54;20
Mickey Pelletier
It we'd still be going then. We'd only be halfway through the conversation.
01;03;54;22 - 01;04;15;11
Jonny Dunning
So listen, appreciate your time. I appreciate everything you do in the market. Keep it all coming. I love the content you're creating. I you know, I'm glad you enjoyed doing it and getting really, you know, the success you're generating is brilliant. Brilliant to watch with that and all of the stuff that you're doing. For anyone that doesn't know where to find you, where was the easiest place for people to find you?
01;04;15;14 - 01;04;34;22
Mickey Pelletier
I was find me on LinkedIn. Mickey Pelletier CWM strategies.com. The YouTube channel, Spotify channels, all all different ways to to find me and and Jonny, thanks for having me on your show today. Always always lovely to talk with you. And, we could probably go another hour here. So this this has been a lot of fun.
01;04;34;22 - 01;04;36;15
Mickey Pelletier
I appreciate you having me.
01;04;36;18 - 01;04;39;11
Jonny Dunning
That's always making. Glad we got together. Thank you very much.
01;04;39;13 - 01;04;40;07
Mickey Pelletier
Thank you.